<\/p>\n
AMANDA KERSEY: Welcome to HBR On Leadership<\/em>, case studies and conversations with the world\u2019s top business and management experts\u2014hand-selected to help you unlock the best in those around you.<\/p>\n I\u2019m HBR senior editor and producer Amanda Kersey.<\/p>\n Serving on a board can expand your influence, strengthen your leadership skills, and even open doors to bigger opportunities. But getting that first seat\u2014and figuring out how to contribute once you\u2019re there\u2014can feel daunting.<\/p>\n In this episode of Women at Work<\/em><\/a>, you\u2019ll hear from eight women about how they stepped onto boards, what they learned in the process, and how the experience shaped their careers. You\u2019ll also get perspective from Ellen Zane, the former CEO of Tufts Medical Center, who now sits on multiple boards.<\/p>\n Here\u2019s host Amy Bernstein.<\/p>\n AMY BERNSTEIN: Have you ever thought about joining a board?\u00a0Research<\/a>\u00a0suggests women\u2019s presence improves the decisions these groups make and, in turn, improves financial performance. Being on a corporate board gives you a say in how the business is run, including how it treats employees and customers. If you\u2019re a senior executive, experience on a public or a private company board\u00a0boosts your CEO eligibility<\/a>, if that\u2019s a goal of yours. Being on a non-profit board is where many directors get their start or stay. It\u2019s a chance to stretch your mind, your skills, your network. It\u2019s a way to have an impact on your neighborhood or your alma mater or your industry.<\/p>\n But maybe you haven\u2019t considered serving, because it sounds like another suck on your time, or the benefits aren\u2019t clear, or you were waiting for retirement, or you just didn\u2019t know enough to dive in\u2014or no one asked you. Well, let\u2019s test those assumptions and fill in some gaps. Eight women volunteered to tell us how they landed a board seat, gained confidence there, and grew personally and professionally. I hope their perspectives round out your sense of what the work is and that they inspire you to sooner or later try it for yourself. And if you\u2019re doubting your qualifications, Lani Hollander, one of our volunteers, will tell you, \u201cJust don\u2019t.\u201d<\/p>\n LANI HOLLANDER: I think especially for getting started with a smaller non-profit board, the main thing that matters, really, is passion and interest.<\/p>\n AMY BERNSTEIN: Passion and interest is how, in 2019, Lani got invited to join a board, although networking was key and getting a master\u2019s in non-profit management must have given her a leg up. The invitation came from the executive director of a humanitarian organization in Thailand whom she\u2019d known for several years. Back in 2015, Lani worked for a different humanitarian organization, and the two partnered on programming. They got along so well that after Lani left that job, they kept in touch through regular calls. During one of those calls\u2014<\/p>\n LANI HOLLANDER: It became apparent that their board needed some, some new people to join, that they were looking to recruit. It really felt natural for me to get involved, And I felt that I had skills, especially working in the non-profit sector for, for a decade at that point, specifically within small non-profits, like non-profits with, ah, $300,000 of annual revenue or less. I felt that I could contribute as a board member.<\/p>\n AMY BERNSTEIN: The role suited her. She went from participating in meetings to preparing the agendas to suggesting the group re-elect officers to becoming its chair.<\/p>\n LANI HOLLANDER: I always felt really included. I always felt like I was able to express my opinion or make a point. And there was incredibly good rapport and communication among everyone. And so, I think that that created a space for people to show up as themselves, to communicate without fear of judgment, to be compassionate, and to make space for one another.<\/p>\n AMY BERNSTEIN: She stepped down at the end of 2022.<\/p>\n LANI HOLLANDER: And that\u2019s mostly just because I work, uh, my life has changed a lot, I got married, I became a mom. My daughter just turned two. So, it\u2019s really just more of like a personal capacity thing.<\/p>\n AMY BERNSTEIN: For now, she keeps a list of non-profits to approach when she\u2019s ready to jump back in.<\/p>\n You\u2019re listening to Women at Work from Harvard Business Review. I\u2019m Amy Bernstein. I\u2019m also considering jumping back in. About 20 years ago, I joined the board of a non-profit women\u2019s journalism group, and a few years later, I led the board of a friend\u2019s non-profit. The two organizations could not have been more different, and their meetings could not have been more different. But in both cases, I was flying absolutely blind. I didn\u2019t know the rules, and I wasn\u2019t sure what was expected of me. Getting up to speed was really hard and so humbling.<\/p>\n Now, all these years later, I\u2019ve had a couple of decades more experience, I\u2019ve been in senior leadership roles, I\u2019ve led large teams in complicated projects, and I\u2019ve been thinking about boards again. And if I join another board, yeah, I will definitely be a lot better prepared, partly because of that experience and partly because of this episode.<\/p>\n Ellen Zane is here with me to give context and more insight as we hear from those eight volunteers. In her last day job, she was CEO of Tufts Medical Center, a position she held until she retired in 2011, only to ramp up her career\u2014on boards. Right now, she\u2019s on many. They are a mix of public, private, private equity, and not-for-profit. And on top of all that, she directs the\u00a0Women on Boards program<\/a>\u00a0within Harvard\u2019s School of Public Health. That program prepares executives, and not just those from healthcare, to become directors themselves.<\/p>\n So, Ellen, thank you so much for being with us today.<\/p>\n ELLEN ZANE: Thank you for inviting me.<\/p>\n AMY BERNSTEIN: How did you get into the whole board business?<\/p>\n ELLEN ZANE: A lot of it is serendipity.<\/p>\n AMY BERNSTEIN: Mm-hmm.<\/p>\n ELLEN ZANE: When I announced that I was stepping down as the CEO at Tufts Medical Center, shockingly and unexpectedly, my phone started to ring.<\/p>\n AMY BERNSTEIN: Ha.<\/p>\n ELLEN ZANE: And there were a lot of boards looking for women to assume in the corporate board area but all boards a position. Healthcare is such a large sector. Whether it\u2019s life sciences or healthcare provision insurance technology, medical technology, pharmaceuticals. So, there were many, many opportunities; and the truth is, uh, my first six months after I stepped down, I was flying around the country, interviewing these companies, telling them all,\u00a0I can\u2019t do it all<\/em>. But it turned out to be an incredible opportunity because there is a huge need.<\/p>\n AMY BERNSTEIN: So, you know, it was the serendipity of your stepping down as CEO of Tufts Medical Center, which means that you were already very prominent in your field. Why did it take the trigger of your retirement from Tufts?<\/p>\n ELLEN ZANE: First of all, I was on one public company board while I was working, but there are rules through the SEC and other areas where typically full-time executives don\u2019t sit on more than one for-profit board. So, once you step down, the assumption is that you have more time. So, when you step down, that\u2019s when they come calling, typically, at least on the for-profit side.<\/p>\n AMY BERNSTEIN: On the for-profit side. And you had served on a non-profit board before.<\/p>\n ELLEN ZANE: Several. I had been on university boards, uh, and some other non-profits as well, including the hospital on the campus of the National Institutes of Health in Washington.<\/p>\n AMY BERNSTEIN: Now, did you realize when you joined those boards that they were essential for steps to getting into the corporate board work?<\/p>\n ELLEN ZANE: If you ask a recruiter, they often say that sitting on a not-for-profit board is not a precursor for sitting on a for-profit board. Others of us, who have done both, believe that it is. Because while it\u2019s a different form of governance, interacting with management, interacting with other board members, interacting on financial issues, personnel issues, strategic issues, you know what the content areas are, you have some basic ground rules. For example, the difference between the governance of an organization and the operations of an org.<\/p>\n AMY BERNSTEIN: Right.<\/p>\n ELLEN ZANE: As they say, \u201cNoses in, but fingers out,\u201d on the board side. So put your nose in so you learn and understand how to govern; but in terms of the day-to-day operations and the management, that\u2019s up to management. Once you\u2019re on a board, you don\u2019t do that anymore.<\/p>\n AMY BERNSTEIN: Oh, so you learn what lines you can and\u2026<\/p>\n AMY AND ELLEN TOGETHER: \u2026cannot cross.<\/p>\n AMY BERNSTEIN: You know, before we go any further, let\u2019s do sort of a 101 on boards. Why do they even exist?<\/p>\n ELLEN ZANE: Because there is a difference between the governance of an organization and the oversight and governance of the assets, whether they\u2019re charitable assets or financial assets. That is why boards exist, to oversee that so that management doesn\u2019t have exclusive rights to use those assets. So, boards are governance, while management is operations and execution. So, it\u2019s really oversight of some type of assets.<\/p>\n AMY BERNSTEIN: Mm-hmm. Boards have a specific set of functions, though, and they have committees about finance and committees about compensation. Talk to us a little bit about how boards actually function.<\/p>\n ELLEN ZANE: What they all have in common is usually, the number one responsibility is, the hiring and firing of the CEO. And when push comes to shove, it comes down to that. But they have other oversight. They have strategy responsibilities in terms of weighing in on that, audit responsibilities, compliance responsibilities for the \u00a0correct compliance of the organization, particularly boards having to do with financial services. Uh, most for-profit boards have, for committees they have audit, nomination and governance committees, and the third is compensation. They\u2019ll have some other committees, perhaps a finance committee, perhaps a human resources committee, but the main threads that you see in almost all boards are the audit, nomination and governance, and compensation.<\/p>\n AMY BERNSTEIN: And nomination is really about the nomination of the CEO, right?<\/p>\n ELLEN ZANE: No, that\u2019s usually about the nomination of people on the board.<\/p>\n AMY BERNSTEIN: Oh, so other board members.<\/p>\n ELLEN ZANE: And who sits on what committees \u2026<\/p>\n AMY BERNSTEIN: Oh, I see.<\/p>\n ELLEN ZANE: \u2026 of, of other board members.<\/p>\n AMY BERNSTEIN: Oh, you\u2019re self-governing.<\/p>\n ELLEN ZANE: You self-govern, that\u2019s right.<\/p>\n AMY BERNSTEIN: (laughing)<\/p>\n ELLEN ZANE: And you even give yourself pay raises. That\u2019s the other thing you do. (laughing)<\/p>\n AMY BERNSTEIN: Oh, awesome. (laughing)<\/p>\n The finance committee is where Patti Neuhold-Ravikumar started on each of the five non-profit boards she served on while she was president of the University of Central Oklahoma. She\u2019d been the university\u2019s CFO and, before that, its associate VP for planning and budget. And so naturally, the regional food bank and chamber of commerce and others wanted her overseeing their money.<\/p>\n PATTI NEUHOLD-RAVIKUMAR: And I\u2019m fine serving on a finance committee, but I want to move around when I\u2019m on the board. I don\u2019t want to be pigeonholed, right? So, if another opportunity comes up on the development committee or on the governance committee, I ask to be moved to those places so that, number one, I can give my experience and expertise to different areas, and then number two, so that I can get that experience in return. The next board I may serve on, I may not serve on the finance committee at all. Finance was a stepping stone for me, it was not a destination. But you, sometimes, you have to rely on, on what you have until you can create what you want to be or where you want to go.<\/p>\n AMY BERNSTEIN: And if you want to stay within your specialty but branch out into unfamiliar industries, that\u2019s an option too. For instance, Jolene Morse has a doctorate in risk management, and she\u2019s, no surprise, on the risk committees for two boards. One\u2019s for a public hospital, and the other\u2019s for an orthotic and prosthetic association. So, both in healthcare, an industry she had zero professional experience in before scoring those seats in 2020.<\/p>\n JOLENE MORSE: What I really wanted to do with a board position was continually learn, challenge my own way of thinking. So, I would have a look at the position descriptions and say,\u00a0Hm, no, that doesn\u2019t actually sound like me<\/em>. Or,\u00a0Oh, that\u2019s something that I might be interested in<\/em>. So, I\u2019d really sort of done a lot of prep work leading up to actually starting to apply to really narrow down where I thought value proposition could be.<\/p>\n AMY BERNSTEIN: Here\u2019s how she positioned herself during the interviews.<\/p>\n JOLENE MORSE: It was at a time where risk was sort of front-of-mind for a lot of people, but they didn\u2019t have a depth of knowledge. So, for me, it was really saying, \u201cYou know, risk is something that I\u2019m quite passionate about, but I think it gets undersold because people do it because they think they have to rather than,\u00a0How can this add value to my strategy?<\/em>\u201d So, for me, it was really bringing a different perspective to the conversation around that.<\/p>\n AMY BERNSTEIN: So, Ellen, I listened to Jolene\u2019s story, and I say to myself,\u00a0Really? You just sort of decide you want to join a specific board, and you get on the board?<\/em>\u00a0Is that how it works?<\/p>\n ELLEN ZANE: No.<\/p>\n AMY BERNSTEIN: Okay.<\/p>\n ELLEN ZANE: (laughing) It is, it is not. Firstly, we all have to remember, it isn\u2019t about what we want, per se.It\u2019s about what the boards need.<\/p>\n AMY BERNSTEIN: Right.<\/p>\n ELLEN ZANE: And I think a lot of people who desire board service think about it in reverse, they think about what they would like.<\/p>\n AMY BERNSTEIN: Mm-hmm. Right.<\/p>\n ELLEN ZANE: And we need to understand and be patient, where boards have opportunities that match what we want. But first and foremost, boards are going to do what they need to do for themselves.<\/p>\n AMY BERNSTEIN: So, who makes the match?<\/p>\n ELLEN ZANE: It\u2019s very interesting. If you ask a board recruiter, and they\u2019re out there\u2014if you ask them, they\u2019ll even tell you that not more than 35% of all seats that are given in boards come through a recruiter. Whether it\u2019s not-for-profit or for-profit, it\u2019s typically who you know, and networking is important.<\/p>\n AMY BERNSTEIN: Right.<\/p>\n ELLEN ZANE: And I always tell people, \u201cYou never know who you\u2019re sitting next to at a breakfast on an airplane.\u201d That\u2019s how this happens, where someone knows you and someone knows a bit about your background and the skillset and the judgment that you have. And someone says, \u201cThis might be a good match for a particular organization or company.\u201d<\/p>\n AMY BERNSTEIN: That\u2019s how Anna Manning came to the board of the elementary school connected to her church. Someone knew she was a lawyer, reasoned she had sound judgment, and badgered her until she signed on. Seven years later, she\u2019s all in as the committee chair for curriculum and standards.<\/p>\n ANNA MANNING: But when I first started on the school board, I knew nothing about children\u2019s education and just the amount of lingo and acronyms. I was a bit more reticent about coming forward and saying, \u201cWait a minute. Like, why are you doing it like that? What does that even mean?\u201d<\/p>\n AMY BERNSTEIN: Then, in her day job, she moved into a strategy role that fortuitously let her see its board of directors in action.<\/p>\n ANNA MANNING: A lot of them have been on boards for years, like boards of huge banks, and I saw people coming from completely different sectors, who would say, \u201cWait. What? You know, you should be thinking about this from this lens, or you should be thinking about it from that lens.\u201d Or they would stop the whole meeting and say, \u201cSorry. What does TFG mean?\u201d And I was like,\u00a0Oh, yeah. I can do that, too<\/em>. And I just started being a lot more curious and a lot more persistent with the things that I would ask and sort of the line of inquiries that I would take. And when I actually did that, I found it never really let me down.<\/p>\n AMY BERNSTEIN: Ellen, you know, Anna, Anna\u2019s experience is one that every novice has. The rules are weird, they\u2019re not intuitive. I had that experience. It\u2019s as if there\u2019s not on-ramp into these conversations. You must hear from a lot of women in your work with the School of Public Health. What questions come up, and what do you tell women who are new to this whole world?<\/p>\n ELLEN ZANE: I do get the question often about when to speak up and when not to and how to judge that and gear it. It\u2019s an EQ skill; and understanding that you should ask questions, and there is no question that\u2019s too small.<\/p>\n AMY BERNSTEIN: And you have a responsibility to deeply understand what\u2019s going on.<\/p>\n ELLEN ZANE: To deeply understand. Some questions, however, are better offline because it may take people down a rabbit hole that they don\u2019t want to go in in the middle of a board meeting. It\u2019s reading the room and knowing when it\u2019s important to speak up and insert yourself into the conversation and when it\u2019s not.<\/p>\n AMY BERNSTEIN: Mm-hmm. I mean, am I adding, am I pushing the conversation forward, or am I just re-repeating what others are saying, saying the obvious?<\/p>\n ELLEN ZANE: Repeating myself.<\/p>\n AMY BERNSTEIN: Speaking up doesn\u2019t guarantee you\u2019ll be heard. Even when you\u2019re technically the leader, which caught Lindsay Schwartz off guard. She\u2019s been on the board of directors for the Center for Excellence in Assisted Living for 10 years and was its chair for seven.<\/p>\n LINDSAY SCHWARTZ: My vice-chair was a male, the immediate past chair was a male, and at one point, we had an executive director who was a male, and it was hard to get a word in. And I, there were a few times where I was like, \u201cI have something to say. You all need to listen.\u201d And when I said that, I think that was like a,\u00a0Oh, okay, we are not giving her space to talk<\/em>. And I also just kind of took over going through the agenda and, you know, making sure everyone was heard. That was something that was really important to me.<\/p>\n AMY BERNSTEIN: For many women, Lindsay says, there\u2019s another aspect of reading the room: watching your tone.<\/p>\n LINDSAY SCHWARTZ: I would always think, \u201cOh, do I sound like a bitch?\u201d when I\u2019m being assertive. And I think I would just whisper to myself, \u201cDon\u2019t worry about that, and if someone thinks you are, you\u2019re not, or who cares?\u201d (laughing) I mean, I have like a really good therapist that was like, \u201cYou need to speak up, and you\u2019re not, you\u2019re not being a bitch.\u201d And like, we would talk about some of the things that were going on or the way I was treated.<\/p>\n And I also, one of the things that I think is so important is finding a mentor. We had an incredible board chair, Pat Giorgio, and having her too and just reaching out to her when I needed, but I would always joke with her, I\u2019d be like, \u201cI\u2019m always thinking, what would Pat do?\u201d Because I saw her in a vote that no one wanted to be the person to do the motion on. It was just a very politically charged vote and motion, and, and she passed over to vice chair, and she made the motion. In seeing that, and I was like,\u00a0Well, I don\u2019t think she\u2019s acting like a bitch. She\u2019s, you know, taking, taking lead, she\u2019s being a leader, she\u2019s doing hard things<\/em>.<\/p>\n And I think it was that and having my therapist, too, and just realizing, you know, not everyone is going to like what you have to say or agree with it, and it doesn\u2019t mean you\u2019re wrong, and it might not mean that they\u2019re wrong, but I\u2019d worry about that in the beginning.<\/p>\n AMY BERNSTEIN: This sort of self-monitoring is common, including among directors of public companies. After interviewing 43 of them, researchers Tiffany Trzebiatowski, Courtney McCluney, and Morela Hernandez describe their findings in an article called\u00a0How Women on Boards Navigate the \u201cWarmth-Competence\u201d Line<\/a>, the line being that delicate balance of empathy and directness that people expect from us. Navigating it becomes ever more delicate when you see these people quarterly when the stakes are always high. This is why women deliberately pose ideas as questions, like, \u201cI wonder what would happen if \u2026\u201d Softly, politely. It\u2019s why they slip in their credentials. It\u2019s why they make a real effort to get to know other members personally, so when they disagree with them during a meeting, the challenge doesn\u2019t feel so threatening.<\/p>\n As board president of Alaska Dance Theater, Lori Moore deploys another of the tactics, waiting to weigh in on a major decision until everyone else has.<\/p>\n LORI MOORE: It\u2019s not great to be the one kind of pressing your opinion. I want to hear everybody in the room, and if I give my opinion first, sometimes I don\u2019t get all of the information, or I don\u2019t get everybody collaborating within the room. So, in those types of situations, what I\u2019ll do is I\u2019ll present the facts really, really flat, you know, in a very confident manner, and then really encourage other people to jump in and be more assertive about their opinion. And then I can come over top and collate all of those opinions into a true decision.<\/p>\n It\u2019s actually helped to be on a board because I\u2019ve been able to practice different ways of tackling the competence-versus-warmth type of dynamic. As somebody that works in technology, I make that calculation all the time. And sometimes what I\u2019ve found that bleeds into my work life, too It\u2019s helped me figure out ways to be more assertive without coming over as dominant or not a team player.<\/p>\n AMY BERNSTEIN: One of the reasons women resort to these tactics is there\u2019s no onboarding that explains what the norms and expectations are. That\u2019s the position Anna was in when she joined the elementary school board.<\/p>\n ANNA MANNING: It was kind of like, \u201cThrow you in, here\u2019s the agenda for the meeting, here\u2019s the papers, go.\u201d (laugh)<\/p>\n AMY BERNSTEIN: If you find yourself in a similar position, ask the chair so that you can enter that first meeting clear on how and when to contribute. Actually, best practice, Ellen says, is to suss out the culture before assuming the role.<\/p>\n ELLEN ZANE: It is your job to understand that culture, both within the board and, uh, within the management team and the board\u2019s relationship to the management team. And by talking to members of management and talking to our colleagues on the board, and if their stories are similar, it\u2019s a better shot than if they are all talking differently, and you think you\u2019re getting the company line. You never know everything, but it\u2019s really important to do your homework, because if the culture isn\u2019t good, you won\u2019t have a good time on that, on that board.<\/p>\n AMY BERNSTEIN: So, it\u2019s perfectly okay to call up other board members and, and introduce yourself and say, \u201cI\u2019ve been offered a seat on the board. I\u2019d love to get your take on how this board operates?\u201d<\/p>\n ELLEN ZANE: It\u2019s perfectly okay to speak to whomever it is who\u2019s recruiting you, the board chair, head of nominations or governance, and say, \u201cI want to talk with other people on the board.\u201d<\/p>\n AMY BERNSTEIN: Ah, and that person will make connections for you.<\/p>\n ELLEN ZANE: That\u2019s how it should work. If they\u2019re reticent, it\u2019s a red flag.<\/p>\n AMY BERNSTEIN: Mm-hmm. Right. OK, that is excellent insight. So, any board is the big leagues, any board. These are people who have a lot of experience, who are used to the, kind of, infighting, who know how to work the dynamics. What do I need to know, how do I equip myself to be a fully participating member of a board, if I\u2019ve never been on a board before, given that everyone else seems to know all the unwritten rules?<\/p>\n ELLEN ZANE: It is important to do your homework.<\/p>\n AMY BERNSTEIN: Right.<\/p>\n ELLEN ZANE: And to be prepared in a \u2026 Every board, for-profit, not-for-profit, have board books, they have materials that need to be read, and you need to come prepared. You really need to do your homework, not only about the material being discussed at the board, but about the organization, about the management team, and about your colleagues on the board. Know who they are and know what their backgrounds are. And understand that you are there because you bring something. And what is it we look for in a board member mostly? It\u2019s their judgment. So, I\u2019ve been on a board of a semiconductor company, and I knew zero about semiconductors, and I told the CEO that. And he said to me, \u201cEllen, I have more engineers than you can count. What I need is someone who has good judgment, who\u2019s run a large organization and understands the thinking that I go through when I have to make a difficult decision, versus someone who doesn\u2019t have a lot of employees. So, what you bring, right now, is someone who\u2019s run an organization, and I need that now for this board.\u201d<\/p>\n AMY BERNSTEIN: Speaking of homework, Adelle Wapnick did a ton of it after signing on to the board of a foundation. It\u2019s called Surgeons for Little Lives, and she actually named it as a favor for a family friend. She was still in advertising then, and the pediatric-surgeon founders appreciated her strategic thinking so much that they invited her to join them.<\/p>\n ADELLE WAPNICK: And so I said, \u201cYes, I\u2019ve got an absolute pleasure to do so.\u201d So, I felt like I was part of the founding, but I wasn\u2019t really. The surgeons were the ones that did the bit, but always aware that they really did need lay people, et cetera, because they, you know, their world is very specific and quite specialized.<\/p>\n AMY BERNSTEIN: But then, she had to become proficient in that specific specialized world of children\u2019s emergency care for two reasons, so that she could knowledgeably market and fund-raise to the public, and so that she could develop her influence internally with a board that has now grown to 10 members.<\/p>\n ADELLE WAPNICK: I read a hell of a lot. I\u2019ve learned so much about our country and what is going down and what we face in our public systems, whether it\u2019s education, health. Also, not only did I understand more about the medical field, but I also put a lot of effort into understanding how NGOs operate, how people were doing and how they got their notions and how they connected with their donors, et cetera. So yes, a lot of reading, and then the one surgeon that\u2019s on our board, he was a neighbor of mine down the road, and we would spend hours walking and talking. So, I think I\u2019ve got a lot of insight through the conversations that I had more informally with him actually than a structured kind of learning process.<\/p>\n AMY BERNSTEIN: Another part of being a fully participating member of a board, Anna discovered, is piecing together the full picture of a conflict or proposal. From her first board meeting, she sensed that to grasp something complex, she couldn\u2019t simply rely on the people who\u2019d come before the board to present.<\/p>\n ANNA MANNING: And sometimes, people frankly think because you\u2019re on a board, you\u2019re automatically a bit scary, so I\u2019ve made a point of making good relationships with staff throughout the school. I will make sure that at least one day and usually a couple of other half-days within the year, I am present in school. And so I can actually just say to the English teacher, \u201cWe\u2019ve heard in our meeting that this particular reading scheme is going really well. Can you tell me what you think about that?\u201d And they\u2019ll say, \u201cOh, to be honest, I don\u2019t think it\u2019s going that well. I think we need to do a bit more training, and I need to be supported to do that.\u201d<\/p>\n