<\/p>\n
ALISON BEARD: \u00a0<\/strong>Welcome to HBR On Leadership<\/em>, case studies and conversations with the world\u2019s top business and management experts, hand-selected to help you unlock the best in those around you. I\u2019m HBR executive editor Alison Beard.<\/p>\n We\u2019re grappling with a host of big and complex global problems. Climate change, political division, social inequality.<\/p>\n Harvard Business School Professor Rosabeth Moss Kanter believes that business leaders should step-up and help tackle these issues using their skills, networks, and organizational power to pursue better solutions. In this 2020 IdeaCast episode, Kanter speaks with host Curt Nickisch about how \u201cadvanced leaders\u201d can make progress on specific challenges.<\/p>\n Here\u2019s Curt.<\/p>\n CURT NICKISCH: I was just reviewing the intro to the book where your first two words are irritation and impatience. And you call your book \u201ca manual for moving leadership to a whole new level,\u201d which is simple, but also audacious maybe. Why does there need to be a call to action like this?<\/p>\n ROSABETH MOSS KANTER:\u00a0 We have such big problems in the world.\u00a0 Some things are clearly getting better, but they\u2019re getting better unevenly and these problems are effecting the ability to do business.\u00a0 Forget about whether business has anything to do with the problems to begin with.\u00a0 And these are issues that come inside companies and they become things that everybody has to deal with.<\/p>\n And of course climate change, anybody who lives on or near a coast has to deal with that and that risk is a big risk for businesses.\u00a0 So, these are big problems.\u00a0 And when I said irritation, I was irritated at the passivity.\u00a0 That is, people like to talk about the problems, they don\u2019t necessarily want to get up and do something about it.\u00a0 And I\u2019m impatient for action and solutions.\u00a0 Because in all the decades we\u2019ve been talking about some of these things \u2013 and by the way, I did find that a famous change guru, 50 years ago, an impossible time to even think about, 50 years ago was listing the same problems \u2013\u00a0 partisan divides, political conflicts, the environment.\u00a0 So, with those problems around for such a long time, it\u2019s time to do something about them.<\/p>\n CURT NICKISCH:\u00a0 What you\u2019re hearing now is this chorus for businesses to take action, for CEO\u2019s to be activists.\u00a0 But I kind of get from the title of your book, Think Outside the Building<\/em>, that you think it takes more than within what we\u2019ve been hearing lately.<\/p>\n ROSABETH MOSS KANTER:\u00a0 Well, I think CEO\u2019s certainly can take action.\u00a0 I think middle managers can take action.\u00a0 Professionals can take action.\u00a0 But when you take action you have to think beyond the silos and divides and walls.\u00a0 Because you cannot take action all by yourself.<\/p>\n For a big problem, even the biggest company in the world can\u2019t do it by themselves.\u00a0 So, IBM wants to take on the problems of primary and secondary education and they do it globally.\u00a0 They\u2019re a global company.\u00a0 They have various innovations that they deploy in just about every geography of the world.\u00a0 But they don\u2019t do it by themselves.\u00a0 They have to do it partnership with the public officials, the governments.\u00a0 They do it in partnership with other companies that they need to join them.<\/p>\n So, this art of building coalitions outside the things you directly control are the art of solving problems in general.\u00a0 That\u2019s what innovation has always been about.\u00a0 When I started out my career and I was just looking at smaller innovations, modest innovations, now we need big innovations.\u00a0 Industries are being disrupted.\u00a0 They have to be transformed.<\/p>\n And so, when one thinks about these bigger change problems, you\u2019re always thinking beyond the boundaries.\u00a0 That\u2019s what I mean about outside the building.\u00a0 It\u2019s not literally whether it\u2019s outside the walls of your company, although it might be.\u00a0 I think going out for a little fresh air from time to time and traveling and seeing new things becomes very important.\u00a0 But it\u2019s outside the boundaries of convention, the walls that restrict us from change because they\u2019re the walls in our minds.\u00a0 They\u2019re the walls that make us say, nothing could ever be different.<\/p>\n CURT NICKISCH:\u00a0 Do you think it\u2019s the job of business and business leaders to do this now?<\/p>\n ROSABETH MOSS KANTER:\u00a0 I do think that business leaders have a special responsibility because they\u2019re under attack, because credibility and legitimacy are waning.\u00a0 I mean it used to be that people were extremely proud to work for certain companies.\u00a0 And when that starts declining, some people don\u2019t want to go home and tell their neighbors what they do.<\/p>\n So to win back trust, business has a big role.\u00a0 But so do elected officials.\u00a0 I talk about a mayor, I talk about many lawyers.\u00a0 Lawyers feel that acutely because many people went into law in the first place because they cared about justice and then they started to work for a corporate law firm and that isn\u2019t what they were doing.\u00a0 They were helping those businesses with their securities lawsuits, or their mergers and acquisitions.<\/p>\n CURT NICKISCH:\u00a0 Or, scientists nowadays who find the academic career pretty tough and they end up working for companies that are building algorithms or systems, right.<\/p>\n ROSABETH MOSS KANTER:\u00a0 The other reason I think business, besides the fact that people like scientists are employed by them, is that business has an awful lot of power and I first became interested in business and in improving the quality of management and creating more leaders because of that power, that institutional power.<\/p>\n People do listen to business executives and I think everybody listening to this podcast who works in a company should think about the automatic resources available to them that aren\u2019t necessarily available out in the community, and how they can take advantage of those resources to tackle a problem like climate change, do an educational campaign, mount a little effort to create an innovative product that helps people with say, keeping the lights off a little bit longer.<\/p>\n I mean there are so many things that for which business can be a solution.\u00a0 And so even if a manager, an early career person isn\u2019t necessarily the CEO, but can start attending meetings, rallying the community, you can begin to have a voice and make a difference.<\/p>\n CURT NICKISCH:\u00a0 So, just to put a point on this, at a time when people feel like they\u2019re helpless and they can\u2019t change these big things that are happening in the world, if you work at a company, you have a piece of that power.<\/p>\n ROSABETH MOSS KANTER:\u00a0 I don\u2019t think we\u2019re helpless.\u00a0 I think it\u2019s easy to feel helpless.\u00a0 And when you feel helpless, you feel a little depressed, you don\u2019t do anything.\u00a0 You say the problems are so big, that\u2019s a typical sign of a losing streak.\u00a0 That\u2019s what happens when companies start declining.\u00a0 Everyone says oh, it\u2019s somebody else\u2019s responsibility.\u00a0 We need a turnaround, but there\u2019s nothing I can do about it because it\u2019s inevitable.\u00a0 We\u2019re losing customers.\u00a0 And that\u2019s depressing.\u00a0 And so, when you\u2019re depressed you lose energy and then nothing happens.\u00a0 It\u2019s a vicious cycle.\u00a0 But if you find even one action and get started, you just have to get moving.\u00a0 Just try it.\u00a0 If it doesn\u2019t work, fix it.\u00a0 Try something else.\u00a0 And that is an enormous source of energy.<\/p>\n CURT NICKISCH:\u00a0 To use that action analogy and of course combine it with the image of thinking outside the building, why is taking a small step outside the building important?\u00a0 What what does that set in motion?<\/p>\n ROSABETH MOSS KANTER:\u00a0 Oh, if you step outside, I mean first of all you see the world differently.\u00a0 There are many executives and managers who are insulated.\u00a0 They live in little bubbles.\u00a0 I went to Brazil once and I never saw the street because I was picked up at the airport in a helicopter, helicopter to the top of a corporate headquarters, went down in an elevator, but I thought if you\u2019re insulated from the streets, if you\u2019re not out with the people you often don\u2019t see possibilities.<\/p>\n And in that same bank in Sao Paulo by the way, there was a leader that I talk about in Think Outside the Building<\/em> who pointed out to the bank, the bank was about to take a stance on climate change, on the environment.\u00a0 They were going to be known as a green bank.\u00a0 And this leader pointed out to them that\u2019s all very good in theory, but right next door was an alley that was full of drug dealers and trash, and maybe they could start by cleaning up the alley, doing something about the alley next door.\u00a0 And they did.\u00a0 And that alley is now filled with artwork and people and street vendors.\u00a0 It\u2019s a very pleasant place to go and it\u2019s a transformation.\u00a0 And the people that worked on that transformation felt so empowered and so positive, they began to feel that they could do even more.\u00a0 And the bank did very well with this reputation for being the green bank.<\/p>\n CURT NICKISCH:\u00a0 You use this example of Sesame Street, which I love.\u00a0 How is that a good model for business leaders today?<\/p>\n ROSABETH MOSS KANTER:\u00a0 I love Sesame Street too.\u00a0 Who in the world doesn\u2019t love Sesame Street?\u00a0 If you do you\u2019re Oscar the Grouch, if you don\u2019t love them.\u00a0 Sesame Street took over the audience and had big audience share and then went into decline because of the rise of pay TV, cable TV, because of new media and they were very complacent and didn\u2019t really see that.\u00a0 Because what happens when you get successful?\u00a0 Is you start going inside, pulling down the shades, locking the doors and you never really see change happening outside, or you ignore it.\u00a0 You say we\u2019re powerful.\u00a0 We\u2019re successful and so, companies get complacent.<\/p>\n And they got complacent.\u00a0 And they needed fresh thinking.\u00a0 And so they brought it a new CEO whose background was in commercial television, the money side, and so there was a little concern.\u00a0 The money side, we don\u2019t want to corrupt Big Bird.\u00a0 But he brought in fresh thinking.\u00a0 He got them to think outside the sector and create a partnership with a commercial cable system.\u00a0 He got them to think outside the industry, including new partners for their educational material including IBM and their Watson artificial intelligence work; small startups who had digital education of various kinds.<\/p>\n So he opened up the thinking much more broadly and he opened it up also to say how do we solve some of the world\u2019s biggest problems?\u00a0 Just a little while ago, Sesame, now called Sesame Workshop, the parent organization won $100 million contest for one organization that was going to have the highest impact on the world, MacArthur Foundation.\u00a0 And Sesame in collaboration with the International Rescue Committee won that prize.\u00a0 So by thinking even more broadly, and they\u2019re doing early childhood education now, in the Middle East, and for Syrian refugees, and they\u2019re going to have a huge impact.\u00a0 Think about all the kids languishing who actually could be a source of talent for companies.<\/p>\n CURT NICKISCH:\u00a0 So you\u2019ve given a couple of examples there of a bank leader, a leader of Sesame Workshop, and these are the types of people you call advanced leaders.\u00a0 So, I\u2019m just curious, what was it that those people did that other leaders aren\u2019t doing?<\/p>\n ROSABETH MOSS KANTER:\u00a0 Many of the leaders are people who by their values, by their sense of purpose in life, and by the way, we know that companies that want to retain talent had better make the jobs more meaningful than they are now because they\u2019re losing a lot of talent.\u00a0 That\u2019s why this thinking outside the building becomes part of fixing many of the things that companies need to fix.<\/p>\n But what these leaders have in common, sometimes they have experience in a career and they\u2019ve had a chance to reflect, but not entirely.\u00a0 They are just reflective people.\u00a0 They are curious.\u00a0 They\u2019re interested in the world around them.\u00a0 They travel.\u00a0 They therefore get access to new ideas just because they see new things.<\/p>\n Verizon, the big telecom company has a new CEO.\u00a0 He\u2019s formerly CEO of Ericsson.\u00a0 And he now has his top executives tell him what they\u2019re doing differently every week.\u00a0 He wants them to do one new thing every week and go to one new place.\u00a0 Think about that.<\/p>\n So these are all people willing to go to new places.\u00a0 They have curiosity.\u00a0 It helps to be at different ends of life, either early, earlier in your career before the demands of family are so great, or a little later in your career when you\u2019ve already made it to high levels and your kids are grown.\u00a0 That helps to have the time, but really what they have in common is their values, their desire to make a difference and the curiosity to learn about the world.\u00a0 Plus I guess a feeling that they can do it.<\/p>\n CURT NICKISCH:\u00a0 They seem rare, these advanced leaders.<\/p>\n ROSABETH MOSS KANTER:\u00a0 I don\u2019t think advanced leaders are necessarily rare, but we haven\u2019t emphasized it, that is we have not honored enough, the people who have much broader interests.\u00a0 They are getting honored now.\u00a0 If you want to get an award from a major business association, it helps to have done something important for the community.<\/p>\n And many CEO\u2019s of major, major global companies will talk first and foremost about their company\u2019s efforts in the community.\u00a0 Ginni Rometty talks about what IBM is doing for education.\u00a0 Jamie Dimon talks about what JPMorgan Chase is doing in Detroit.\u00a0 So, this has become a source of respect and reputation for established business leaders.<\/p>\n But there are a lot of people who get a little narrowed by their career and their job.\u00a0 They become accustomed to living in a bubble, to nobody disagreeing with them.\u00a0 They like problems that can be solved easily and quickly.\u00a0 I was struck by the fact that when Amazon was looking for its second headquarters and New York City, Queens in New York was selected as one of two locations, how quickly Amazon pulled out at the first sign that the community wasn\u2019t totally united behind the idea.<\/p>\n And I thought, my God, if one of the richest people in the world and one of the most prominent companies can\u2019t stand a little community turmoil, then we\u2019re in trouble.\u00a0 Because they didn\u2019t even bother to try to convince them to try to win them over.\u00a0 And they would have done so much for New York.\u00a0 Had they done that they would have had a whole set of loyal relationships.<\/p>\n Uber, also turned its back for a long time, it\u2019s changing now, but turned its back on the interest of government and regulators and taxi drivers and, but those companies that really take into account these problems and say we\u2019re going to do something about them, they get credit.\u00a0 Johnson & Johnson got incredible credit when they had a scandal about tampering with Tylenol, one of their lead products.\u00a0 They immediately took it off the market.<\/p>\n And what a difference that is from Johnson & Johnson having to pay big fines now because of the opioid crisis and we don\u2019t value pharmaceutical companies as great corporate citizens anymore, even though they think they\u2019re trying to bring health.<\/p>\n So, we need people who see the larger consequences of their actions.\u00a0 And that\u2019s outside the building thinking.\u00a0 As well as outside the building thinking is the only way you get innovation,<\/p>\n CURT NICKISCH:\u00a0 It sounds like while you want people who understand how to manage up and build coalitions and develop influence and use it in positive ways, there\u2019s also this element of hustle that you want from people, like a good entrepreneur who\u2019s trying to be innovative or launch something new.\u00a0 People have to get out of kind of their regular comfortable job, career track and just put themselves at risk some more.<\/p>\n ROSABETH MOSS KANTER:\u00a0 Yeah, well change is always a risk.\u00a0 But that\u2019s where purpose and meaning, having a big dream of which fixing some of these big problems plaguing the world certainly counts as a big dream.\u00a0 Because it\u2019s got to be, it\u2019s got to be big and meaningful otherwise why would you stick with it?\u00a0 And how would you ever convince anybody else?<\/p>\n You can\u2019t go to them and say, oh there seemed to be some problems out there.\u00a0 Let\u2019s set up some committees.\u00a0 That\u2019s not inspiring.\u00a0 You have to say, we\u2019re going to a place where nobody\u2019s gone before.\u00a0 And sure it\u2019s a little risky, because of what I call Kanter\u2019s Law. Kanter\u2019s Law is that everything can look like a failure in the middle.\u00a0 So, OK, you get started \u2013 whatever it is, you start out and you hit obstacles you didn\u2019t know were there because you had never been down that road before.\u00a0 So, you get a coalition of backers and supporters and they all say, sure we\u2019ll invest in you a little, or we\u2019ll show up at a meeting, and then they don\u2019t, or they back off, or it turns out they don\u2019t all agree.<\/p>\n So, I say it\u2019s like crossing the desert looking for the next oasis.\u00a0 That it can be a long dry spell before you ever get to a place where there\u2019s an accomplishment and you can rest.\u00a0 And so what keeps you going during those times?\u00a0 What keeps you going is the sense of purpose and meaning.\u00a0 What keeps you going is that you do have some allies and you can\u2019t let them down.<\/p>\n This kind of change, this kind of leadership is all about people that you don\u2019t control.\u00a0 That\u2019s the difference between advanced leadership and typical corporate hierarchical leadership.\u00a0 You don\u2019t control any of those people.\u00a0 They\u2019re all volunteers \u2013 even when people are working for a paycheck, they\u2019re still volunteers.\u00a0 Because if they don\u2019t want to do it they have all kinds of ways to slow you down.<\/p>\n And so, if they\u2019re volunteers you have to keep making it worthwhile, making it meaningful and you can\u2019t let them down.\u00a0 One of my lessons is we all need other people.\u00a0 And change is all about not just persuading them so you can do your thing, it\u2019s about building a community of people who believe the same thing.\u00a0 And after you build a big enough community, the whole ecosystem can start to change.\u00a0 That is lots of other organizations look at what you\u2019re doing and say, hey that\u2019s a cool idea.\u00a0 We could do this too.\u00a0 Soon you have an industry.<\/p>\n CURT NICKISCH:\u00a0 Are there companies out there that you see poised for this kind of change?\u00a0 Where you look out and you think they have the potential, they should be doing something.\u00a0 They have the power and you are just waiting for advanced leaders and advanced leader initiatives to come out of those companies?<\/p>\n ROSABETH MOSS KANTER:\u00a0 The companies that are already doing have lots of advanced leaders inside, but I\u2019ll give you two examples.\u00a0 One is a U.S. company, CVS that you could say well, they\u2019re a pharmacy company, but they have been transforming themselves into a health company.\u00a0 And already they have projects and ventures that are so different.\u00a0 They\u2019re still within a company framework.\u00a0 I mean I\u2019m not saying you have to actually abandon being in a company.\u00a0 But they now have clinics.\u00a0 They use part of their retail space to be clinics.\u00a0 So they\u2019re kind of hospitals now, not just pharmacy companies.\u00a0 They do the insurance.\u00a0 They banned tobacco from the stores.\u00a0 That was a courageous move.<\/p>\n CURT NICKISCH:\u00a0 Right.\u00a0 That had effect on the bottom line.\u00a0 Yeah.<\/p>\n ROSABETH MOSS KANTER:\u00a0 Yeah because tobacco is, brings in a lot of money, but it wasn\u2019t part of health.\u00a0 So, now the opportunities for people to think about how do they use stores differently?\u00a0 What else can they do that effects the health of communities and the nation?\u00a0 It\u2019s a big opportunity.\u00a0 The other example is a Chinese company called Haier.<\/p>\n CURT NICKISCH:\u00a0 That\u2019s Haier spelled H-A-I-E-R.<\/p>\n ROSABETH MOSS KANTER:\u00a0 H-A-I-E-R. Haier makes appliances.\u00a0 Haier bought General Electric appliances in the United States.\u00a0 And Haier is trying to make everybody an entrepreneur.<\/p>\n And to see that in Louisville, Kentucky for a U.S. company bought by a Chinese company, is really pretty dramatic. They\u2019re helping their employees, and in fact insisting that some employees start a business based on a Haier platform and create an ecosystem around the business.<\/p>\n These sound like technical words, but for example, they\u2019re not just selling refrigerators.\u00a0 They\u2019re creating a food ecosystem.\u00a0 They\u2019re not just selling washing machines.\u00a0 They\u2019re developing a clothing ecosystem in which they can partner with lots of other companies to make sure that the effects on the environment are benign.\u00a0 That they tie in types of clothing to what a washing machine can handle well.\u00a0 They\u2019re starting to think much more imaginatively.\u00a0 And that\u2019s the kind of thinking I think we need inside businesses as well as outside.<\/p>\n CURT NICKISCH:\u00a0 Rosabeth, thanks so much for coming in to talk about this and I hope you\u2019ve inspired some people.<\/p>\n ROSABETH MOSS KANTER:\u00a0 Thank you.<\/p>\n CURT NICKISCH:\u00a0 That\u2019s Rosabeth Moss Kanter.\u00a0 She\u2019s a professor at Harvard Business School and she wrote the new book, Think Outside the Building.<\/p>\n HBR On Leadership<\/em> will be back next Wednesday with another hand-picked conversation from Harvard Business Review.<\/p>\n If this episode helped you, share it with your friends and colleagues, and follow the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. While you\u2019re there, consider leaving us a review.<\/p>\n When you\u2019re ready for more podcasts, articles, case<\/p>\n studies, books, and videos with the world\u2019s top business<\/p>\n and management experts, find it all at HBR.org.<\/p>\n I\u2019m Alison Beard<\/p>\n This episode was produced by Mary Dooe.<\/p>\n On Leadership<\/em>\u2019s team includes Maureen Hoch, Rob Eckhardt, Erica Truxler, Tina Tobey Mack, Ramsey Khabbaz, Nicole Smith, and Anne Bartholomew.<\/p>\n Music by Coma Media. Thanks for listening.<\/p>\n<\/p><\/div>\n #Business #Leaders #Solve #Worlds #Toughest #Problems<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":" ALISON BEARD: \u00a0Welcome to HBR On Leadership, case studies and conversations with the world\u2019s top business and management experts, hand-selected to help you unlock the best in those around you. I\u2019m HBR executive editor Alison Beard. We\u2019re grappling with a host of big and complex global problems. Climate change, political division, social inequality. Harvard Business […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":3177,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_monsterinsights_skip_tracking":false,"footnotes":""},"categories":[9],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-3918","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-management"],"acf":[],"yoast_head":"\n