Middle Managers Should Drive Your Business Transformation<\/a>.\u201d That\u2019s the title of an HBR article published in April. The authors, Michael Mankins and Patrick Litre, both partners at Bain, implore executives to harness the ingenuity and creativity of leaders under them because that\u2019s often where breakthroughs come from.<\/p>\nDirectors and department heads have uniquely valuable perspective. They\u2019re deep enough in the day-to-day operations to appreciate the factors and assumptions that contribute to any given problem. They\u2019re also close enough to the work to spot certain emerging opportunities. All this means that they\u2019re inclined to propose solutions and ideas that are thorough yet doable. Common sense, right? But the reason Mankins and Litre implore executives to welcome bottom-up change is that senior leaders tend not to.<\/p>\n
I mean, think back to the last time you had an idea for changing how your company does business or for bringing in new business: different tech, a new market, an improvement to a process. How\u2019d that go over? Did you feel you even had their full attention?<\/p>\n
Michigan Ross professor Sue Ashford says the overarching reason executives pass on an idea from a mid-level manager is that they don\u2019t immediately perceive its relevance to organizational performance. She teaches MBA and exec ed students how to sell their ideas up the chain of command, and she\u2019s here to share wisdom from her couple of decades of research into that skill.<\/p>\n
Ellen Bailey\u2019s also here with us because at Harvard Business Publishing, she\u2019s the VP of Business and Culture Transformation\u2014and boy does she live up to that title. She\u2019ll give examples of how she\u2019s applied Sue\u2019s thinking in her job: tailoring her pitch, framing the issue, involving others, and more. Ellen\u2019s developed her own road-tested persuasion tactics, and she\u2019ll tell us all about them. I hope that hearing about the tactics that have worked well for Ellen, and for Sue, and for me will help you choose your next battle and win it.<\/p>\n
Sue, Ellen, thank you so much for joining me today.<\/p>\n
SUE ASHFORD: Thanks. It\u2019s wonderful to be here and to have this talk.<\/p>\n
ELLEN BAILEY: Absolutely. I\u2019m looking forward to it<\/p>\n
.<\/p>\n
AMY BERNSTEIN: So, Ellen, you\u2019ve had to sell really big ideas into leadership at this organization. Some of them were about growth, some were about culture. Tell us about that and what you saw as the key moments, and maybe what you\u2019ve learned along the way.<\/p>\n
ELLEN BAILEY: Absolutely. Amy, one of the things I learned from you years ago when I brought questions up or when I brought ideas up is you always said, \u201cWhat\u2019s the problem that you\u2019re trying to solve?\u201d And so that\u2019s where I always start. And so, the formula that I use is, number one, what is the problem that I\u2019m trying to solve? Number two, what are the benefits mutually beneficial to the organization and the people? Because it\u2019s never just about the business, and it\u2019s never just about the people. They\u2019re completely intertwined, right? And then, I would say, thirdly, does it link to our strategy or goals or drive that, right? So, when we think about the benefits, is it also aligned with what we\u2019re, at the core, trying to do? Those are just literally the three questions that I ask before I even try to put a story or a narrative together.<\/p>\n
AMY BERNSTEIN: Yeah. I love hearing that, Ellen, because I remembered those conversations, and it took me so long to learn those lessons. It used to be for me that I\u2019d have an idea, and I\u2019d think it was just obviously a good idea, right?<\/p>\n
ELLEN BAILEY: Right.<\/p>\n
SUE ASHFORD: Mm-hmm.<\/p>\n
AMY BERNSTEIN: Well, that is not the proper way to get buy-in, right? You really have to explain what makes this a good idea, and it\u2019s really helpful to think it through for yourself.<\/p>\n
SUE ASHFORD: Yeah. The one thing I\u2019d add to that is thinking through for whom might this not be a good idea, and what would be the reason? I know that we get so invested in our idea and we know why it\u2019s good, but we forget that someone from another point of view just is going to look at it differently. For example, an idea about, We need to reorganize this way<\/em>. One case study is a woman putting forth an idea about more time off and more flexibility for everyone. Because the people were working themselves to death in this organization, and the person who had the contact with the client was like, \u201cOh, so we\u2019re going to tell them we work less for you.\u201d And so, if you think about What are they going to say?<\/em> it makes you think, Oh no, we need to think about how we frame it, how we phrase it, how we talk about it<\/em>. So, it\u2019s more just\u2026 once you think about their point of view, you have new ideas about how to sell your issue.<\/p>\nELLEN BAILEY: I can build on that and give a very specific example. So, one of the things that we wanted to do a couple of years ago was we were wanting to ensure that we have equity for all in our organization, right? We just need to have some checks and balances in place, some evaluations to make sure we\u2019re doing the right things right. And the best certification out there that I could find, and I still believe is great, is this Black Equity at Workplace Certification. It was like, okay, so we are not as racial and ethnically diverse as we would like; we are predominantly a white organization. So, how do we sell this idea and think about it from another person\u2019s perspective, and could there be a downside? Through further research though\u2014and having your data points is really important because there are studies that prove that if your organization is equitable for a black woman, then it is equitable for all. So, then everybody wins. And so, then I was able to use that data point to try to address that perspective of folks that would\u2019ve perceived that something may be going away or not as beneficial to them. So, it reiterates Sue\u2019s point.<\/p>\n
AMY BERNSTEIN: So, I think I actually remember that, and I remember that as a very compelling argument that you made. My version of that is I wanted to change a process that would\u2019ve affected a particular group of people who could have understood it as making their jobs harder. And having done that job myself in the past, I, really, in my heart, believed it was just making the job different. And so, what I had to do to sell this idea was to address that head on with the people affected to hear what they were saying, to see if my perception was right or wrong, and I had to adjust. And to deal with it, not steamroll them, but also to feed back the argument for the greater good. I mean, it\u2019s hard and it can be frustrating, and it takes way more time than you may have budgeted.<\/p>\n
SUE ASHFORD: That\u2019s so true. Yeah. Our oldest model of change is a very simple one by Kurt Lewin, unfreezing the organization, changing, and refreezing. And he talks about a force field model where at all times there\u2019s forces pushing for change and resisting change. And right now, they\u2019re equal in their pressure. And so, it keeps the organization in a stasis state, and you could either increase the pushing forces or decrease the restraining forces. And basically, it\u2019s a better strategy to try to decrease the restraining forces because when you increase the pushing forces, people push back, they don\u2019t like it. But if you try to understand the point of view, make it work for them, reducing their blocking and their desire to block, you get the movement.<\/p>\n
AMY BERNSTEIN: Right, we hate change.<\/p>\n
SUE ASHFORD: We do.<\/p>\n
AMY BERNSTEIN: So, let\u2019s just go to this point where you\u2019re in this moment of birthing an idea. How do you even know if it\u2019s a good idea? How do you vet your own idea before you set out to sell it? Ellen, tell us about how you do it.<\/p>\n
ELLEN BAILEY: Yeah. Before I even think about selling it, I actually leverage my network for this. Because I\u2019m like, Am I thinking about this the right way? Is this even worth putting forth? Is anybody else thinking about it this way? How radical is this really?<\/em> And so that\u2019s the first place I start is just evaluating it that way.<\/p>\nSUE ASHFORD: Exactly. Allies, colleagues, friends, husbands, wives, partners.<\/p>\n
ELLEN BAILEY: All of the above, Sue. Yep.<\/p>\n
SUE ASHFORD: All of the above. Yeah.<\/p>\n
AMY BERNSTEIN: Okay. But then, how do you move from the inner circle of trust to the greater organization? How do you do that, Sue?<\/p>\n
SUE ASHFORD: Well, I propose, and when I teach executives, I make them do this, that you map who\u2019s out there. So, you map three different groups. Who is an obvious ally for this issue, who is an obvious blocker for this issue, and who are the fence sitters? And then, my favorite sentence about change is, your job is to mobilize your allies to influence your fence sitters to pressure the blockers. You don\u2019t go directly at the blockers; you\u2019re really just trying to mobilize people around that faction in order to get it going.<\/p>\n
So, part of the preparation is just mapping who\u2019s out there. And then, the other thing I have them do is map who makes the decision, and then, who do they listen to? So, who do they trust? Who in their eyes has expertise? And those would be other people you might want to try to get on board.<\/p>\n
AMY BERNSTEIN: So, Ellen, can you take us through a real situation? All right, you vetted with the people you trust who you know are going to be straightforward with you. You have some confidence that this idea really could be valuable. What\u2019s your next move?<\/p>\n
ELLEN BAILEY: My next move is to start weighing the pros and cons, right? So, taking a look at the impact that it could have on the business and what would the trade-offs be? And can we actually\u2014I know this sounds really odd and oversimplified\u2014but can we do it, is it doable? Are the people that I\u2019m going to talk to, will they feel like it\u2019s doable? Because you can have the best ideas in the world, but if it appears even or the perception is it\u2019s too hard, or it\u2019s too complicated, then it\u2019s not doable. But the first place I start is what\u2019s the business that it could drive or the upside and identifying the trade-offs, then literally positioning it in a way that I think it might be doable, and then, I go from there.<\/p>\n
AMY BERNSTEIN: So how do you prep for the pitch? What kind of information do you get? You say, is it doable? So, what kind of information are you looking for?<\/p>\n
ELLEN BAILEY: Yeah, so good question. So, I look at the organizational landscape from a business perspective as far as what have we done to date and what has worked or hasn\u2019t worked. And then, I also take a look at the culture and the people. And so, do we have the right people? Do we have the culture in place? What are the shifts that we would need to make to do that?<\/p>\n
And then, I literally, I guess I\u2019m, I don\u2019t know. I\u2019m very informal and so I don\u2019t try to make it fancy. I don\u2019t try to make it bigger than a bread box, but I literally lay out then step by step by step, starting with here\u2019s the problem that we are trying to solve<\/em> and making sure that we gain agreement on that. Because the biggest mistake that I made and still make periodically for sure, is making the assumption that we agree on the problem and the baseline. We are in agreement that this is an issue, and I just make an assumption because I see it that I\u2019m right, that everybody else does too. And so, it\u2019s like, Oh, wait, no, there are multiple perspectives out there<\/em>. So, starting with that baseline to gain agreement on this is the problem to solve, and that it\u2019s actually worth solving.<\/p>\nAnd then, from there, walking through literally step-by-step by step on how we can actually get there. And so, it is very targeted and succinct, and I challenge myself to how few slides or how few pages can I have?<\/p>\n
And then, I\u2019d say the last piece is when I\u2019m selling in an idea is the first meeting, my goal is just to get buy-in to its worth exploring, not a yes, but are people willing to process it, think about it, and explore it. So, I think not trying to bite it off more than I can chew, which is also a lesson learned. I want to go from zero to a hundred in one meeting and get a yes and go, and I\u2019m like, Oh yeah, no, that\u2019s not how this works<\/em>.<\/p>\nSUE ASHFORD: There\u2019s two things you raise that are really consistent with how we think about this in the academic world: we think of organizations as having an agenda, and it\u2019s limited. They only have limited time and attention. And because there\u2019s a limited agenda, it\u2019s a marketplace: you have this issue, but somebody else has some other issue that they think is important; and you guys are not competing, but there\u2019s a scarce time and attention. Only some issues are going to get there. And then, the other thing that was\u2026 So, in your story was the idea of small wins. If you can get people to think small, they\u2019re more likely to think, Okay, I could do that<\/em>. And then, you start to see outcomes which makes you feel like you could do more, and it creates some momentum. It attracts allies like, Oh, look what they\u2019re doing over there. I want to be part of that<\/em>.<\/p>\nAMY BERNSTEIN: I also wonder about that first\u2026 You\u2019re ready to take the idea, you\u2019re ready to shop it out there, take it out of the circle of trust. How do you think about those first pitch meetings, if you will? Ellen, how have you thought about them?<\/p>\n
ELLEN BAILEY: Yeah, so one, to be quite frank, they make me nervous, so I don\u2019t even pretend that they don\u2019t. So, I play it over in my head and scenario plan. One of the things I do too is I try to understand\u2014if it\u2019s a large group, it\u2019s a little bit tougher; if you\u2019re talking to two, three, four people, it\u2019s a little bit easier\u2014but really, honestly, what are their personalities and what are their work styles? Do they want a narrative? Do they want bullet points? Do they need a visual? Do I need to have all three of those things in there to help convey my point? And so that\u2019s one of the things I absolutely do is try to think through what are the work styles, learning styles, and honestly just flat out personalities of the folks that I\u2019m addressing.<\/p>\n
AMY BERNSTEIN: Totally. I also try to socialize ideas, talk to the stakeholders one-on-one to hear their concerns, to hear how they play the idea back before taking it wide. So, before the big meeting with the executive committee, whatever it might be. I actually think it\u2019s important for almost everyone at that table to have heard this before and to have been able to give some feedback so that those people can also feel some authorship. Also, so you can improve the idea to bulletproof it. What do you think, Sue?<\/p>\n
SUE ASHFORD: Yeah, exactly. You\u2019re meeting with the team that\u2019s going to decide is just the most visible step in the process. It\u2019s not the whole process. The way I phrase it is issue selling is a campaign. You have a campaign plan for your idea.<\/p>\n
AMY BERNSTEIN: Absolutely.<\/p>\n
SUE ASHFORD: And I think when you get out of the circle of trust, you are selling the issue: You\u2019re selling the issue in the elevator, and you better have a 20-second portrayal; you\u2019re selling the issue when you hold a meeting with one-on-one meeting. To gain your allies, you\u2019re selling the issue. You\u2019re not just selling the issue in that one meeting. You\u2019re selling the issue all along the way, and it gives you all the benefits that you mentioned, Amy.<\/p>\n
AMY BERNSTEIN: Well, and the other thing I always keep in mind is this isn\u2019t about me. So, feedback, particularly negative feedback, is not personal, and you take that as the gift it is.<\/p>\n
SUE ASHFORD: Yeah. It\u2019s really about the collective. And Ellen, you said, I always start with what\u2019s the strategy. How does this fit? Because all true leadership isn\u2019t about me, it\u2019s about what we\u2019re trying to create here. And issue selling is just a great example of that.<\/p>\n
AMY BERNSTEIN: Yeah. So, Sue, you think about this a lot. What are the common mistakes that you\u2019ve seen people make when they are pitching an idea to the business?<\/p>\n
SUE ASHFORD: Yeah. Well, one is going it alone, thinking that you alone are going to make this big deal happen.<\/p>\n
The second is not regulating your own emotions. Because if you think about it, you often need very hot emotions to want to sell an issue. It\u2019s something that you\u2019re invested in that matters to you. So, you\u2019ve got, maybe you\u2019re angry, and then, maybe it doesn\u2019t work, so you get frustrated. So, managing those emotions because I think when you actually raise it with people, you need to be somewhat cool emotionally to raise it, to be open.<\/p>\n
Then the other is around this having a solution, which everyone will tell you, \u201cYou have to do a solution.\u201d And research has shown, yes, we like people who have a solution, but solutions can also be very narrow, and there might be a much better solution out there if it was discussable and we could brainstorm about it and come to a better solution.<\/p>\n
The other thing is people, they grab hold of the organization like the blind man and the elephant, they grab hold of one part\u2014the tail, or the leg, or the ear\u2014and they\u2019re passionate about their issue, but they\u2019re not seeing the elephant. And other people often if you\u2019re selling up, they have a broader perspective, and so they\u2019re not liking your issue. It isn\u2019t personal certainly, but also, they have information that you don\u2019t, and you need to better understand how the issue fits in.<\/p>\n
AMY BERNSTEIN: That is such an important piece of advice because if you\u2019ve ever been on the receiving end of a pitch and you\u2019re grappling with it, you are buying in and you\u2019re kind of playing it back, and maybe you change in word here or there, you add in a salient detail, and the author of this pitch just isn\u2019t having it\u2014it\u2019s 100% percent my way, the way I\u2019ve articulated it, or it ain\u2019t worth doing<\/em>\u2014I got to say, that\u2019s kind of a turnoff.<\/p>\nSo, I want both of you to sit on the other side of the fence, and you\u2019re being pitched ideas. What framing, what tactics really work for you? I\u2019ll start with you, Ellen.<\/p>\n
ELLEN BAILEY: Mm-hmm. I ask the same questions of the folks that are pitching to me that I ask of myself and my prep, which is leading with the benefit. So, what is the benefit to the organization and to the people? Do we actually think this is doable, and how does it impact or drive the strategy, et cetera, and what are the potential? So, I usually start with those very three specific questions, and now when folks come to me, if they come to me more than once, they come prepared with those three things.<\/p>\n
AMY BERNSTEIN: All right, Sue, who has been a senior associate dean, you have been on the other side of the fence a lot.<\/p>\n
SUE ASHFORD: For sure.<\/p>\n
AMY BERNSTEIN: So, what works for you?<\/p>\n
SUE ASHFORD: People being open to understanding the bigger picture. They come to me with their issue, and if I can share, \u201cThis is hard for me because of X, Y, and Z,\u201d they will work with me on that rather than being resentful or et cetera, so that matters.<\/p>\n
Flexibility regarding timing. I was often overwhelmed by the amount of things coming at me, and if I could say to someone, \u201cLook, I\u2019d love to talk about this issue. Could we do it next week, in a month?\u201d that kind of thing. There are openness and flexibility about that really helped a lot.<\/p>\n
AMY BERNSTEIN: Yeah. And when I\u2019ve been sold ideas, I find that when someone kind of opens the aperture and takes in strategic goals, solves a problem, articulates the argument crisply, that works for me. When I have to do a lot of work to try to figure out what this is and is it important, I don\u2019t know, that\u2019s a lot. I\u2019ve got to be at a meeting in two minutes.<\/p>\n
SUE ASHFORD: Yeah, I think being able to understand how it feels to receive helps you a lot with how you think about selling.<\/p>\n
AMY BERNSTEIN: Yeah, I see you nodding your head, Ellen.<\/p>\n
ELLEN BAILEY: Mm-hmm. Definitely. I mean, how do we get unstuck, and how do we help people who are pitching us ideas or others thinking about things differently? And so I embedded this question into my team meetings recently, which is, \u201cWhat are the other three ways that we could think about this or solve for this?\u201d<\/p>\n
SUE ASHFORD: So good.<\/p>\n
ELLEN BAILEY: Just this morning, as a matter of fact, I had a conversation with a couple of colleagues around an allyship reverse mentoring program. And so while we all know all of the benefits to this, and they\u2019re all fabulous, the first version that I received was multiple months, a yearlong hours per month dedicated to this. And so, the reality, back to one of the points I made earlier, is that, Is it really doable when we think about our employees and what\u2019s on their plate? While we want to do it justice, that\u2019s probably too much of a heavy lift.<\/p>\n
So, then the second version was one meeting, and I\u2019m like, \u201cOh wait, that\u2019s not enough.\u201d And so, the discussion that we had then was around, what are two or three other ways that we can solve for this that still maintains the objective and the benefits that we\u2019ve outlined, but what are some ways that we can do it?<\/p>\n
And where we landed was three meetings that can take place over the course of three to four months to address these three topics. And then, there were options and flexibility built in, but it was me posing the question back to these two brilliant folks on what are two or three other ways. And then, the brainstorming just went, and we ran 15 minutes over our meeting time because of all of the great ideas that they came up with.<\/p>\n
AMY BERNSTEIN: So, we received quite a bit of email from listeners who are struggling to get their ideas off the ground, and I\u2019d love to get both of you to weigh in on a couple of them.<\/p>\n
So, let me start by reading a message we got from a listener named Pam. Pam\u2019s a program manager at a company that issues credentialing exams for specific industry expertise. And she says the company can\u2019t seem to manage projects effectively. There are no project managers, and the C-suite doesn\u2019t understand the amount and type of resources it takes to execute on certain projects. Projects are continuously slowed down and derailed by fire drills from the executive team who don\u2019t think there\u2019s a problem with how things operate. As a result, the company isn\u2019t issuing as many exams as they could. Teams are working long hours, turnover is high, and they\u2019re perpetually understaffed.<\/p>\n
Pam has talked about this to her boss and the C-suite, and she presented to them a deck with data around how much more revenue could be generated if they just had the proper resource allocation.<\/p>\n
But before she really got into the conversation, the whole thing was derailed by a C-suite member\u2019s own questions and agenda and went down a rabbit hole of everything else except what she had planned to talk about.<\/p>\n
Pam is looking for your advice on how she can steer these conversations back on track and how to get the executive team to see how the lack of resources and project management is truly a problem.<\/p>\n
So, one of the things that seems she\u2019s failing to do is to get the executive committee to really understand the urgency around this problem. What advice would you give her to get them to feel this urgency? Ellen, what do you think?<\/p>\n
ELLEN BAILEY: That\u2019s a good question and a tough one because I too have been in those situations, right? And one of the things that I do is I just pause, and I start laying out, \u201cOkay, our original intent was to discuss issue A, but we are now going down issue B. Is this the time and place that we want to discuss B? Or should we circle back and go back to A?\u201d<\/p>\n
AMY BERNSTEIN: All right, is this the quiet part, or are you saying it out loud in the meeting?<\/p>\n
ELLEN BAILEY: I\u2019m saying it out loud in the meeting.<\/p>\n
AMY BERNSTEIN: Okay.<\/p>\n
ELLEN BAILEY: So, one of the things that I will say is I am authentic, and I think you can have executive presence and be authentic. And so, I usually, hopefully not to my detriment, talk that through out loud so that we are in agreement, or we can come to a mutual agreement on what is most urgent to finish in that meeting.<\/p>\n
AMY BERNSTEIN: So, Sue, what do you think of Ellen\u2019s approach to figuring out the timing here?<\/p>\n
SUE ASHFORD: Well, the timing, I think, is good. But saying all that out loud, I would have a little worry about it because that other person is right there in the room, and it\u2019s a little indicting of\u2014I think it was her\u2014and I think if that person is probably resistant to this idea possibly, which is why they took the conversation off into a different track. And I wonder if I would do it across meetings.<\/p>\n
If you identify someone as a resistor, that label is dangerous for your openness, right? Because we don\u2019t like resistance, we don\u2019t like people who resist our ideas. And resistance gives you a lot of information. If that person was derailing, why are they derailing? What\u2019s in it for them? How does this change potentially impact them? So, I might try to suss that out with my network, talking to other allies that could say, \u201cWhat do you think that was about? And why do you think they were doing that?\u201d<\/p>\n
ELLEN BAILEY: And I wasn\u2019t actually thinking that the person was a resistor. Yeah. If it\u2019s a resistor, I certainly wouldn\u2019t call them out in front of everybody.<\/p>\n
AMY BERNSTEIN: I mean, I have seen it happen, and it has happened to me where I didn\u2019t think it was resistance. I thought it was someone sort of musing out loud and taking the entire room with her.<\/p>\n
ELLEN BAILEY: For sure.<\/p>\n
SUE ASHFORD: And it might be a competing issue seller, right? And if that\u2019s all it is, then I love Ellen\u2019s, \u201cLet\u2019s just verbalize what\u2019s happening here.\u201d<\/p>\n
AMY BERNSTEIN: Yeah.<\/p>\n
ELLEN BAILEY: Yeah.<\/p>\n
AMY BERNSTEIN: So, let\u2019s hear another question. This one\u2019s from a woman we\u2019ll call Allison. She\u2019s a data services manager at a water utility company who pitched a strategy to her department\u2019s leadership, who told her that they loved it, and yet they haven\u2019t brought her ideas to top leaders.<\/p>\n
The organizational problem that she\u2019s trying to solve is that the data engineers and analytics people are slow to make decisions and are bad at collaborating. She\u2019s advocating for the two teams to merge. She\u2019s also advocating for someone to lead that newly merged team because currently no one\u2019s overseeing that work, even though the company says it\u2019s very important. Here\u2019s what she\u2019s done so far. She\u2019s explained to the leadership team how the new data team and structure she proposed would allow the company to grow. She\u2019s created budget forecast for her proposal, and she\u2019s jumped through hoop after hoop to justify why her strategy is needed.<\/p>\n
Allison thinks that the leadership team\u2019s inability to make decisions, their lack of overarching company strategy, and the fact that they\u2019re all really busy doing their own thing is getting in the way. So, she\u2019s wondering if the leadership team likes the plan and the business wants them to address these issues, why has nothing moved forward? How can she manage the feeling that she\u2019s being annoying? What\u2019s your take, Sue?<\/p>\n
SUE ASHFORD: I would wonder whether she really has gotten buy-in, she\u2019s gotten verbal statements about buy-in, but I don\u2019t know that it\u2019s there yet. People resist new ideas, actively, they criticize, they challenge, they don\u2019t give you resources, or they also can do it passively. They\u2019re just let time go by. They\u2019re just somewhat unresponsive. There\u2019s delay.<\/p>\n
AMY BERNSTEIN: Right. And sometimes people nod their heads to get you to move on.<\/p>\n
ELLEN BAILEY: Yeah, that\u2019s very different than buy-in, right?<\/p>\n
AMY BERNSTEIN: Yeah.<\/p>\n
SUE ASHFORD: Yeah.<\/p>\n
ELLEN BAILEY: Maybe, Sue, as what you said earlier, if she did get buy-in, then what is the holdup, and is there something else happening behind the scenes or something larger that she\u2019s potentially unaware of? But yeah, seeking to understand, I would start following up with folks individually and confirming if she does have buy-in number one, and then, number two, then really seeking to understand what the holdup is then.<\/p>\n
SUE ASHFORD: Yeah.<\/p>\n
AMY BERNSTEIN: So, you mentioned one idea, Ellen, about what might be the holdup, what\u2019s going on behind the scenes. What are some other things that Allison ought to be thinking about?<\/p>\n
SUE ASHFORD: I think she should think about who stands to lose. Changing structures in an organization\u2019s big, right? So, who stands\u2026 How does the analytics head think about this plan of suddenly being merged with data and having a data person on the executive group? All structures come with issues. If you divide things up this way, there\u2019s this set of issues. If you divide them up some other way, there\u2019s a different set, but they all have issues that need to be overcome. So, this one does as well, even though it\u2019s got some big pluses. And so, thinking through who stands to lose might be important.<\/p>\n
AMY BERNSTEIN: I also think that sometimes an idea is good, and people buy into the idea as an idea, but there\u2019s so many more urgent things on the agenda. There\u2019s so many bigger problems to solve that it might be worth Allison\u2019s trying, to Ellen\u2019s point, to find out what else is the executive committee thinking about, right?<\/p>\n
SUE ASHFORD: Yeah. It might be an example of what we were talking about where she has a thin slice of the organization that she understands-<\/p>\n
AMY BERNSTEIN: Exactly.<\/p>\n
SUE ASHFORD: \u2026 and may not understand the whole.<\/p>\n
AMY BERNSTEIN: Yeah. So, let\u2019s go to the more personal part of Allison\u2019s question. How do we deal with that? Oh, that voice in our heads that\u2019s telling us you\u2019re just being annoying, piped down. Have you ever heard that little voice in your head?<\/p>\n
ELLEN BAILEY: All the time.<\/p>\n
AMY BERNSTEIN: And how do you tell her to shut up?<\/p>\n
ELLEN BAILEY: I really do weigh the pros and cons, and is this the battle that is worth fighting? And I determine that literally by, does it help the people, and does it help the business in a significant way? And then, I just keep going.<\/p>\n
SUE ASHFORD: At some point, if the issue is important enough, you have to be willing to risk being annoying. And I get mad at some senior women colleagues have tenure, have full, are chaired, and they\u2019re like, \u201cOh, I\u2019m scared to bring up issues about the treatment of women.\u201d I\u2019m like, \u201cIf you don\u2019t do it, who will?\u201d So yes, you might suffer a little bit, but if you\u2019re doing it for the right reason that we talked about earlier for the mission, clearly not about me, about the collective, then you might have to risk being annoying.<\/p>\n
ELLEN BAILEY: Yeah, I agree a hundred percent, Sue. I think, How critical is this to address?<\/em> And there are things that I\u2019m just passionate about, that I love, that I really want to address that are low-hanging fruit and good opportunities, but it\u2019s just not a priority. And so that\u2019s where the timing comes into play as well. But if it\u2019s critical enough, then yeah, you have to continue to be annoying, so to speak, and push it forward. But there is that balance because you don\u2019t want to be the one that seems to always be raising the issues either.<\/p>\nSUE ASHFORD: Yeah, that\u2019s a pick-your-battles kind of thing.<\/p>\n
ELLEN BAILEY: That\u2019s exactly it.<\/p>\n
SUE ASHFORD: Oh, yeah.<\/p>\n
ALISON BEARD: HBR On Leadership<\/em>\u00a0will be back next Wednesday with another hand-picked conversation from Harvard Business Review.<\/p>\nThis episode was produced by Mary Dooe.\u00a0On Leadership<\/em>\u2019s team includes Maureen Hoch, Rob Eckhardt, Erica Truxler, and Ian Fox.<\/p>\nIf this episode helped you, please share it with your friends and colleagues, and follow the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. While you\u2019re there, consider leaving us a review.<\/p>\n
When you\u2019re ready for more podcasts, articles, case studies, books, and videos with the world\u2019s top business and management experts, find it all at HBR.org<\/a>.<\/p>\n<\/p><\/div>\n#BuyIn #Big #Idea<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"
ALISON BEARD: Welcome to\u00a0HBR On Leadership. I\u2019m HBR Executive Editor Alison Beard. On this show, we share case studies and conversations with the world\u2019s top business and management experts, hand-selected to help you unlock the best in those around you. We carefully curate this feed from across the HBR portfolio, aiming to help you unlock […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":3177,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_monsterinsights_skip_tracking":false,"_monsterinsights_sitenote_active":false,"_monsterinsights_sitenote_note":"","_monsterinsights_sitenote_category":0,"footnotes":""},"categories":[9],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-7475","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-management"],"acf":[],"yoast_head":"\n
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