<\/p>\n
ALISON BEARD: Welcome to\u00a0\ub9ac\ub354\uc2ed\uc5d0 \ub300\ud55c HBR<\/em>. I\u2019m HBR Executive Editor Alison Beard. On this show, we share case studies and conversations with the world\u2019s top business and management experts, hand-selected to help you unlock the best in those around you. We carefully curate this feed from across the HBR portfolio, aiming to help you unlock your next level of leadership.<\/p>\n I hope you enjoy the episode.<\/p>\n CURT NICKISCH: Welcome to the HBR IdeaCast from Harvard Business Review. I\u2019m Curt Nickisch.<\/p>\n Being a manager can be a hard job. You\u2019re distributing heavy workloads, delegating, shifting priorities, overseeing important tasks, and handling personalities and interpersonal tensions. You have to challenge your team, shield them and inspire them, no two days are the same. So managing can be powerful and meaningful work. It can also be a grind that wears you down, and if you feel anxious or burnt out as a manager, that can trickle down to your team faster than you realize.<\/p>\n Today\u2019s guest is here to help managers rediscover the joy in their work and to amplify that\u2026 No, sorry. Today\u2019s guest is here to help managers rediscover the joy in their work and amplify that joy throughout their teams. Daisy Auger Dominguez is a workplace strategist and author. She wrote the HBR article, Finding Joy as a Manager, Even on Bad Days, and she\u2019s here to share some tangible things managers can do to be joyful in their not-so-easy jobs.<\/p>\n Hi, Daisy. Thanks for coming on the show.<\/p>\n DAISY AUGER-DOMINGUEZ: Thank you so much for having me.<\/p>\n CURT NICKISCH: So when it comes to your role as a manager, what do you mean by joy? I mean we\u2019re not talking about being happy every day at work. How do you think of joy in that context?<\/p>\n DAISY AUGER-DOMINGUEZ: For me, joy is more than just this fleeting feeling. It\u2019s about finding deep, sustaining satisfaction in one\u2019s work. It\u2019s that energy that comes from engaging in meaningful connections, in fostering inclusive environments where people feel seen, heard and valued; in empowering others to thrive. When you see your team in their flow excited about what they\u2019re working on, that\u2019s joy. So for me, joy at work is closely tied to purpose, to alignment, and to wellbeing.<\/p>\n CURT NICKISCH: We\u2019ve often heard the statistics, right? And there\u2019s the annual Gallup Employee Engagement Survey that shows kind of a, I don\u2019t know, dismal, very low \u2013 sort of 1\/3 of employees being engaged in their jobs in the U.S. In your experience, is that different for managers? Are they kind of more susceptible to be joyless in their work? Or do they actually maybe have more? Or is that different for them?<\/p>\n DAISY AUGER-DOMINGUEZ: I think in many ways it\u2019s not different, and in many ways it is, right? So when you see low employee engagement signals for managers, it means that something important is missing from their work. And it can be a reflection of various factors, right? Again, not feeling connected to the work, to their people, unclear expectations from the top that they have to then translate to the rest of their teams. And it can also be a sense of an absence of recognition. Here I am working myself to the bone and who cares, right? My leaders are not telling me that I\u2019m doing a good job and my team keeps on complaining about everything that I do, right? I\u2019m failing at everything.<\/p>\n CURT NICKISCH: Have you seen this in your clients? How does this joylessness manifest?<\/p>\n DAISY AUGER-DOMINGUEZ: \u00a0I see it in many different forms. I see it in growing in anger and frustration that sort of snaps at moments that you least expected. I see it in a sense of this chronic fear and uncertainty that slows down their creativity, it slows down their productivity, it slows down their decision-making. It just wears them down.<\/p>\n And when your manager\u2019s worn down, inevitably your team ends up getting worn down, right? That energy gets passed over. And I\u2019ve seen it in just this growing cynicism about anything that gets put in their lap to do. It\u2019s just like, \u201cYou\u2019ve done this before, why is this particularly causing you more angst than always?\u201d And it\u2019s this accumulation of all of these moments.<\/p>\n What mostly worries me when it comes to this, the lack of joy and dissatisfaction with work is it gets manifested in anger and frustration that then gets passed on. And it is not just a symptom, it becomes kind of this dark shadow that looms over daily interactions. And you feel it, you definitely feel it.<\/p>\n CURT NICKISCH: Is this particularly hard for middle managers?<\/p>\n DAISY AUGER-DOMINGUEZ: Absolutely. Middle managers are dealing with the relentless pressures from the top and the increasing pressures from the bottom. And by the same token, they\u2019re also not getting sometimes even the support from their own peers. We tend to highly focus on leaders but it\u2019s really the middle managers that are carrying out all of these tasks and all of these strategies that have to bring people together to get the work done. And when they\u2019re struggling themselves with lack of clarity, when they\u2019re struggling themselves with lack of recognition and resources and support, it\u2019s just a recipe for deep, deep burnout.<\/p>\n CURT NICKISCH: Yeah. You brought up burnout. That\u2019s something that managers have toolkits to try to address. Are you arguing for something a little different here, focusing more on the positive and trying to tackle burnout without bringing kind of everybody down at the same time?<\/p>\n DAISY AUGER-DOMINGUEZ: Yeah. Whenever I talk about burnout, I like to tell folks, I\u2019m like, \u201cListen, you may be already feeling burnt out about talking about burnout, because it\u2019s become the topic everyone\u2019s talking about.\u201d<\/p>\n CURT NICKISCH: Yeah. And the more you repeat it, it\u2019s\u2026 Yeah.<\/p>\n DAISY AUGER-DOMINGUEZ: Yeah. It just becomes this sort of self-fulfilling prophecy, like wah wah wah, everything\u2019s going to be bad. I want to emphasize the joy and the lightness that we can have at work, because I do believe that that helps reduce burnout. It helps bring people together. Sometimes we just have to find humor in the hamster wheel, right? Just kind of like, \u201cI know this is a relentless wheel that I\u2019m on, but where can I find some joy in this?\u201d<\/p>\n Every day, goodness, sadly enough, right? A new crisis, a new nightmare is going to come in front of me, a new problem is going to come in front of me that I need to solve for. And so how do I harness my energy and my spirit in many ways so that I can be prepared to handle all of these things that are coming at me with the right mindset, with the right level of energy, right? And hopefully garner the right level of support that I need to get done whatever I need to get done.<\/p>\n What I don\u2019t want to dismiss is that certainly the factors that lead to burnout are systemic failures, right? So overwork, lack of resources, lack of information, all of those pieces are systemic issues, but we can\u2019t solve them every minute of the day.<\/p>\n And so the reason why I lean on joy is what do I have control over right now? Right? What do I have agency over that I can make this moment at least a little lighter, a little better, and be prepared to when the moment is right to address the systemic pieces that I can address to try and avoid this in the future? Right?<\/p>\n So how do I solve for what\u2019s in front of me now and safeguard my health, my wellbeing, and that of my team, because that\u2019s my responsibility as a manager? How do I do that so that I can be better prepared to then address the really gnarly systemic issues that need to be addressed?<\/p>\n CURT NICKISCH: So for a manager who\u2019s managing sometimes remotely or remote workers, how is that impacting kind of their ability to find and speak joy in their jobs?<\/p>\n DAISY AUGER-DOMINGUEZ: I mean, Llsten, I think there\u2019s a reason why burnout has become the recurring theme we\u2019re all talking about right now. And it is the aftermath of the pandemic and the aftermath of this new way of working. It\u2019s much harder when you\u2019re on a screen to do the things that we do when we\u2019re in a meeting. For example, at the end of a meeting, when you notice that somebody\u2019s energy level was low or you notice that they were snapping at somebody in a way that they usually don\u2019t, where you can just sort of grab them five minutes and be like, \u201cDo we have five minutes? Can we chat? You want to walk around or have a coffee? Right?<\/p>\n We can\u2019t do that. Yes, I can get on a phone and do that, but it\u2019s just not the same. You don\u2019t have the same human exchange that most of us need. And that leads to a lack of joy and enthusiasm and just an overall sense of just appreciation for not just the work that you\u2019re doing, but the people that you\u2019re doing it with.<\/p>\n CURT NICKISCH: You suggest that if you\u2019re a manager and you\u2019ve lost your joy in your work, there are a number of things that you can do about it. Starting with finding your why. What does that look like?<\/p>\n DAISY AUGER-DOMINGUEZ: Finding your why is one that\u2026 it sounds kind of very simple, but we forget about it. We forget about why we go to work in the first place. I was really struck with the Japanese concept of Ikigai, which really translates to a reason for being. And that\u2019s your purpose, that\u2019s your sense of satisfaction and fulfillment with what you do. And finding your Ikigai requires you to lean into deep self-reflection about what are the things that make you happy? Right?<\/p>\n And you know that, right? If you\u2019re a soccer player, and I mentioned a soccer game, I bet you your eyes would light up, right? Your energy all of a sudden shifts because this is something that\u2019s generating happiness for you, right?<\/p>\n What is your best and highest use? Is one of the questions that I ask leaders often when I\u2019m coaching them, because that makes you want to think about not just what brings you joy, but also what are the skills and the talents that you bring to the forefront? I know what brings me joy is connecting with people and is helping them find their purpose and their happiness. And sometimes it\u2019s just helping them gain clarity over what they need to do next. That\u2019s my highest and best use. And when I am doing that, my energy levels are off the charts, right? And I can do that for hours.<\/p>\n So securing the answers to those questions, but also getting a sense of what do you want to be recognized for? Right? What is it that you want to do? Do you want to be a leader? Do you want to be a manager? Do you want to be an individual contributor? Right? What is that highest and best use? And how does that impact others? We don\u2019t spend enough time thinking about what is the impact of our work, good or bad on others? And when we spend some time going through those self-reflection questions, I think we get to a place of what we\u2019re uniquely good at and what brings us joy and happiness and where we can deliver that to its highest impact.<\/p>\n CURT NICKISCH: So you lean into that. You also talk about embracing a beginner\u2019s mindset. Which maybe for managers doesn\u2019t feel as intuitive, right? You\u2019re not supposed to feel like you\u2019re a beginner, you\u2019re supposed to know the answers.<\/p>\n DAISY AUGER-DOMINGUEZ: That\u2019s right. That\u2019s right. You\u2019re supposed to be the expert.<\/p>\n CURT NICKISCH: Yeah.<\/p>\n DAISY AUGER-DOMINGUEZ: We spend our entire careers building expertise. But what happens is that when you\u2019re an expert, you look at things with confinement of, \u201cThere are two or three ways of doing this, and we\u2019re going to do it this way.\u201d Versus a beginner\u2019s mind that allows you to really embrace curiosity. And it allows you to look at things very differently. I talk about embracing a beginner\u2019s mindset as not just something that a manager has to do, but as something that you need to encourage your teams to do, right? Kind of channel your inner five-year-old. Ask all the questions, explore new methods. Reignite your sense of wonder for anything that is in front of you. I was just coaching a senior manager a couple of days ago on a project that was put in front of him, and immediately he became sort of this grumpy, cantankerous like, \u201cI\u2019ve done this before. This is not going to work. I don\u2019t want to waste my time and energy on this.\u201d<\/p>\n And I just paused and asked them, \u201cOkay, what if all of that were true? What does that say about you? Right? That you won\u2019t try new things? That there is no other way of looking at things? What if we looked at this somewhat differently? What questions would you ask?\u201d And then he started asking different questions. I was like, \u201cThat\u2019s awesome. Okay. So what resources would you need?\u201d And by the end of that 15, 20 minute conversation, his mindset had completely shifted to, \u201cOkay, there\u2019s a possibility here that I wasn\u2019t seeing.\u201d But you have to shift that notion of, \u201cI know everything.\u201d To, \u201cYou know what? There could be something here that I don\u2019t know about, right? As a beginner, let me look at this with a very different light.\u201d And 9 out of 10 times we can see something different and approach it differently and get a different outcome.<\/p>\n CURT NICKISCH: You also argue that sharing joy and giving gratitude is important. Is that more about yourself or with the team?<\/p>\n DAISY AUGER-DOMINGUEZ: It\u2019s for both, right? I talk about it personally about those challenging days where I turn to what I call my happy folder, which is a collection of positive notes and affirmations that basically remind me that my work matters.<\/p>\n CURT NICKISCH: These are things you\u2019ve gotten from others.<\/p>\n DAISY AUGER-DOMINGUEZ: Yes. Yes, these are notes that I\u2019ve received from team members. These are notes that I\u2019ve received from partners, from consultants that I\u2019ve worked with, right? Over the years, when there\u2019s something that really, for me, it tugs up my heart because it\u2019s something that makes me feel warm and fuzzy, if you will, right? I keep those. And I go to them from time to time because every once in a while I forget, right? I\u2019m talking about this as a practice, and it\u2019s kind of like building a muscle. If you stop working out for a couple of weeks, your muscles start deteriorating a bit. And so you have to try it again. And so for me, that happy folder is where I go and remind myself, \u201cOh, you know what? I\u2019ve actually gotten a few things right.\u201d I was like, \u201cThe work that I do matters, right? The work that I do is what I\u2019m meant to be doing, right?\u201d That\u2019s the place that I go to.<\/p>\n And as a manager, we can encourage our teams to create their own happy folders, whatever that is. Recently, I was sharing this at a talk that I did, and someone referred to it as data that matters. And I love that, right? We\u2019re surrounded by so much data, but sometimes we need to look at the data that matters, right? That really means something to us. But that spreading of gratitude is also about celebrating small victories, sharing moments that mean something to folks. Simon Sinek, I\u2019m going to probably say this wrong, I\u2019m going to try and paraphrase him. He says something like, \u201cWhen we help ourselves, we find moments of happiness, but when we help others, we find lasting fulfillment.\u201d That helping, that giving, that showing gratitude to someone, that approaching your relationships with that sense of gratitude and generosity, that\u2019s what creates a network of mutual support and growth, and in many ways, resilience.<\/p>\n CURT NICKISCH: I went back and I listened to an episode that we did with a CEO. It\u2019s titled How One CEO Creates Joy at Work. The guest there was Richard Sheridan. And he talked about how easy it is as a manager to create fear, right? You can easily just walk around and talk to people about what they\u2019re working on and when they expect to deliver it, and are they coming in on the weekend to finish it up? And you can easily create fear. And he just finds that he doesn\u2019t want to be that kind of manager, that kind of leader, that kind of CEO. But he also said it just takes constant vigilance to keep sending the right signals and not the wrong ones. Does that sound familiar to you?<\/p>\n DAISY AUGER-DOMINGUEZ: Absolutely. We often forget the tremendous influence and power that our words have and that our actions have on others, right? Sometimes we\u2019re human and we\u2019ll have a bad day, or we\u2019ll just be short with someone. And all of a sudden that becomes the one thing that that person remembers about you all day long, maybe for weeks.<\/p>\n CURT NICKISCH: Oh, yeah. I have a few of those.<\/p>\n DAISY AUGER-DOMINGUEZ: Yes. And especially, because of the role that you play. And we may not like it, I know I struggled for years. I remember I would go to meetings, and I remember, especially when I worked at Google, I was always running late because we just always scheduled meetings 25 minutes at a time, and I was running from meeting to meeting. And every time I would go, the front seat was always available to me. And people would be sitting in the corner, sometimes on the floor. And I would look around and go, \u201cWhy did you save that seat for me? I\u2019m late. My penalty is that I sit on the floor.\u201d And they would look at me and go like, \u201cWell, you\u2019re the leader. We have to create this space for you.\u201d And I remember struggling with that so often, and then I just gave up. I stopped asking because they just always did that for me.<\/p>\n But we can\u2019t underestimate the impact of how others see us and the tremendous impact that our actions and our words have on others. As managers and as leaders, we have the power to lighten someone\u2019s day and to also just destroy it. Even with the best of intentions and unknowingly. So it is our responsibility to show up for others in a way that not just helps give them the clarity and the tools and the resources that they need, but that also helps them feel that they\u2019re cared for, that they\u2019re supported, that this is a place that they\u2019re meant to be. Those feelings of empathy and fondness that we all crave as humans, we as managers, have an opportunity to show that with\u2026 And it doesn\u2019t take a lot of effort, but it absolutely requires intention and consistency.<\/p>\n CURT NICKISCH: So how this looks may vary team by team or by manager, but what are some of the examples of things that you like to do that you\u2019ve seen clients do to share joy, give gratitude and instill joy in their teams?<\/p>\n DAISY AUGER-DOMINGUEZ: We all lead differently, right? We\u2019re all different humans, but we often forget that before we can lead others, we have to lead ourselves. And so I like to think about making sure that I\u2019m being kind to myself because when I\u2019m kind to myself I\u2019m kind to others, right? When I say to myself, \u201cYou did a good job, right? You are safe, you are worthy.\u201d These are mantras that I say to myself.<\/p>\n And I have to be perfectly honest, before I wrote my last book, Burnt Out to Lit Up, I didn\u2019t believe in the power of mantras. I thought they were kind of woo-woo things, and I was like, \u201cAh, that\u2019s not me.\u201d And I have now become one of the biggest advocates. And I have mantras all over my office that just help me get centered before I go and have a conversation with someone else, before I go coach someone, before I go lead a meeting. So that I can go into that space showing up as my best self, right? So that I can help create a space so that everybody else can show up as their best selves.<\/p>\n CURT NICKISCH: And that keeps you from being defensive or getting short in the meetings that you\u2019re about to have?<\/p>\n DAISY AUGER-DOMINGUEZ: Absolutely. Yes. It helps you come into a space. How many times have you been in a meeting when the manager rushes in and they\u2019re just going through all the talking points and you can see that they\u2019re bothered. All of a sudden the tenor in that meeting changes. People may have been laughing before and cracking jokes, and all of a sudden everyone gets tense. It\u2019s just that that energy gets spread so quickly.<\/p>\n So why not do the counter of that? Why not just do two to three minutes? And I do this, whether it\u2019s an in-person meeting or whether it\u2019s a video meeting. It\u2019s just, \u201cOkay, how do I want to show up? Let me go into that meeting with the right mindset, the right energy, so that we can get done what we\u2019re going to get done, and so that people leave that meeting feeling better than they did before they got there.\u201d<\/p>\n CURT NICKISCH: Any other favorite things that you\u2019ve seen clients do, that you\u2019ve seen other managers do to celebrate their teams, to show gratitude, to find joy for them?<\/p>\n DAISY AUGER-DOMINGUEZ: Yeah. I mean, these are simple things, and I used to do this, and one of my team members, I can\u2019t remember who I borrowed it from. But before every meeting, we would spend 5 to 10 minutes answering a different question every week. That was a very personal question, kind of like when you were young, what did you dream of being? If you were to write a book about your life, how would you title it? For HR colleagues, what\u2019s the wildest employee request you\u2019ve ever received? Right?<\/p>\n Questions like that. Everybody goes around the room. It can usually take five to 10 minutes, but it\u2019s this really great energy setter for folks. Moments of, \u201cOh, you feel that way too?\u201d Right? That energy moment. I think that those are, whether it\u2019s questions like that, whether it is starting out your meetings with a gratitude round where everybody goes around and just says one thing that they\u2019re grateful for, either on a team member or that happened that week.<\/p>\n Whether it\u2019s making sure that every time you start your one-on-ones, instead of going right into the agenda\u2026 I have a colleague of mine, Zander Grashow who\u2019s an executive coach who taught me this line, and I love it. It\u2019s \u201cDo you need me to witness, help or distract you right now?\u201d And the energy changes from that person serving you to you giving agency to somebody else to actually ask for what they need to do their work better. So those are just a few examples of phrases and activities that we can all undertake to create spaces where our teams can truly thrive.<\/p>\n CURT NICKISCH: How do you know when this is working?<\/p>\n DAISY AUGER-DOMINGUEZ: Oh my gosh. You see it in the energy of your team, not just in the output and the delivery, which is that productivity piece, which we\u2019re all so keen on. But you see it in how people collaborate, you see it in the energies, you see it in reduced interpersonal tensions. Most of the tensions that as managers and leaders we solve for, like this person doesn\u2019t like this person, or this person\u2019s not delivering their project on time, and so then this person is still waiting for it. When you see a reduction in that is when people are really truly working together in a way that they\u2019re managing their energy, they\u2019re managing their resources, and they actually trust and enjoy working with each other.<\/p>\n You absolutely see that, and it\u2019s not a result just on work output, it\u2019s a result of energy in your team. And it\u2019s the people that say, \u201cHey, we need to stay an extra three hours.\u201d \u201cI got you.\u201d Right? \u201cI\u2019m going to do this.\u201d Instead of, \u201cI\u2019m sorry, I\u2019m out. I did not sign up for those extra three hours, and you need to find somebody else.\u201d You see that in those moments, and you see that as a collective experience across the teams.<\/p>\n ALISON BEARD: \ub9ac\ub354\uc2ed\uc5d0 \ub300\ud55c HBR<\/em>\u00a0will be back next Wednesday with another hand-picked conversation from Harvard Business Review.<\/p>\n This episode was produced by Mary Dooe.\u00a0On Leadership<\/em>\u2019s team includes Maureen Hoch, Rob Eckhardt, Erica Truxler, and Ian Fox.<\/p>\n If this episode helped you, please share it with your friends and colleagues, and follow the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. While you\u2019re there, consider leaving us a review.<\/p>\n \uc138\uacc4 \ucd5c\uace0\uc758 \ube44\uc988\ub2c8\uc2a4 \ubc0f \uacbd\uc601 \uc804\ubb38\uac00\uc640 \ud568\uaed8\ud558\ub294 \ub354 \ub9ce\uc740 \ud31f\uce90\uc2a4\ud2b8, \uae30\uc0ac, \uc0ac\ub840 \uc5f0\uad6c, \uc11c\uc801 \ubc0f \ub3d9\uc601\uc0c1\uc744 \uc6d0\ud558\uc2dc\uba74 HBR.org\uc5d0\uc11c \ubaa8\ub450 \ucc3e\uc544\ubcf4\uc2e4 \uc218 \uc788\uc2b5\ub2c8\ub2e4.<\/p>\n<\/p><\/div>\n #Youre #Worn #Downand #Team<\/p>","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":" ALISON BEARD: Welcome to\u00a0HBR On Leadership. I\u2019m HBR Executive Editor Alison Beard. On this show, we share case studies and conversations with the world\u2019s top business and management experts, hand-selected to help you unlock the best in those around you. We carefully curate this feed from across the HBR portfolio, aiming to help you unlock […]<\/p>","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":3177,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_monsterinsights_skip_tracking":false,"_monsterinsights_sitenote_active":false,"_monsterinsights_sitenote_note":"","_monsterinsights_sitenote_category":0,"footnotes":""},"categories":[9],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-6703","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-management"],"acf":[],"yoast_head":"\n