<\/p>\n
\uc568\ub9ac\uc2a8 \ube44\uc5b4\ub4dc: \uc800\ub294 \uc568\ub9ac\uc2a8 \ube44\uc5b4\ub4dc\uc785\ub2c8\ub2e4.<\/p>\n
ADI Ignatius: \uc800\ub294 Adi Ignatius\uc785\ub2c8\ub2e4. HBR\uc785\ub2c8\ub2e4. \uc544\uc774\ub514\uc5b4 \uce90\uc2a4\ud2b8<\/em>.<\/p>\n ALISON BEARD: Adi, do you know the origin of the word ruminate?<\/p>\n ADI IGNATIUS: I actually do. It comes from ruminants, those animals we love who chew their cud all day.<\/p>\n ALISON BEARD: Yes, exactly. Giraffes, cows, camels. And I didn\u2019t always know that, but once I learned it, I couldn\u2019t stop thinking about how it so perfectly describes what humans are doing when they ruminate. We\u2019re taking our worries about making the right decisions or replaying past mistakes and we just continue to chew on them over and over in really unproductive ways that diminish our focus and ultimately at work hurt our performance.<\/p>\n ADI IGNATIUS: So I assume a lot of our listeners, a lot of leaders struggle with this kind of overthinking, whether or not they talk about it publicly. I mean, think about you get an evaluation and your boss tells you six positive things and one area that needs work and you can obsess on that one negative, maybe even slightly negative thing because we have trouble letting go of them.<\/p>\n ALISON BEARD: Yes, exactly. And wake up in the middle of the night thinking about it. So our guest today is going to explain how to break out of this cycle. Donna Jackson Nakazawa is a journalist and author of the book, Mind Drama: The Science of Rumination and How to Outwit Your Inner Defeatist.<\/p>\n I spoke with her about what\u2019s happening in our brains when we get stuck in this type of thinking, how it plays out at work, and most importantly, concrete practical things that we can do to stop and even shift negative thoughts to positive ones. Here\u2019s our conversation.<\/p>\n How do you define rumination and how do you see it negatively affecting our professional lives?<\/p>\n DONNA JACKSON NAKAZAWA: Well, it\u2019s interesting because when we look at the research on rumination, we find that a third of people don\u2019t really know what the word means, and this is kind of an issue because we\u2019re ruminating more than we ever have before, and what I mean by that is those sticky, icky thought spirals that you get stuck in that you would rather not be spending your precious mental energy on and yet you can\u2019t exit them, or they keep sucking you back in seductively.<\/p>\n We can kind of think of it this way. We don\u2019t want to be doing it, but we keep doing it. We replay conversations, things that happened in the workplace, or we predict what might happen next in the future, and often our ruminative thought spiraling is marked by criticizing ourselves and criticizing others.<\/p>\n ALISON BEARD: And so briefly explain what\u2019s going on in our brain when we\u2019re stuck in these types of thought patterns.<\/p>\n DONNA JACKSON NAKAZAWA: It\u2019s so fascinating, because over the past few years we\u2019ve come to see that rumination is really taking place in one specific area of the brain known as the Default Mode Network. Not to get too techy on people, but it\u2019s an area of three brain networks, literally one at the front of the brain, one in the side and one in the back. And when we\u2019re in self-referential thinking, what do I mean by that? Oh, what did they think of me? What did I do wrong? What was that about in that meeting or what did my boss mean by that cryptic email? When that area of the brain gets going on self-referential thinking, it goes on lockdown. It\u2019s over-performing, and we can\u2019t get out of it.<\/p>\n Well, what does that mean in the workplace? It means that that area of the brain on lockdown is preventing 267 other areas of the brain that allow for creativity, ideation, connection, problem solving, healthy discussion. They\u2019re all shut down. Task positive areas of the brain cannot function when the Default Mode Network has a spun up in thought loops that don\u2019t serve us.<\/p>\n ALISON BEARD: You mentioned that we\u2019re ruminating more than ever before. Why is that?<\/p>\n DONNA JACKSON NAKAZAWA: Well, no one knows exactly why, but we have a lot of good theories about it, and those theories include our lives online. We\u2019re experiencing this unending fire hose of negativity and outrage. We all spend a lot of time on our devices on social media, which algorithms are spinning up that kind of over-emotional response. But also in the workplace specifically, we\u2019re doing everything digitally, like Slack, email, very little face-to-face. The human brain needs an awful lot of context to discern if something is threat positive or to reduce threat in terms of our social comfort and our wellbeing. When we\u2019re doing everything on Slack or we\u2019re doing everything through email or Microsoft Teams, we don\u2019t get the context to discern whether or not there is some kind of social emotional threat.<\/p>\n And most workplace drama is really mind drama. It\u2019s that over-interpretation, that thought spiraling around, what did that email mean? Or how come those two people agreed in the meeting? It seemed like they cut me out. All of that that\u2019s happening without the context of our human ability to read thousands of micro signals that might just tell us that this is not a big deal, we sort of erased them and lifted them out of the workplace.<\/p>\n ALISON BEARD: We are taught to be thoughtful at work, particularly people who are successful. They know how to prepare for risks, they know how to review previous situations to make sure they can improve in the future. So how do you recognize when you\u2019re going beyond that sort of good type of thinking and analysis and instead veering into more dangerous, unhelpful territory?<\/p>\n DONNA JACKSON NAKAZAWA: Right. So we tend to think of thinking as this very positive thing, but we have to be able to distinguish between that kind of healthy thinking, productivity, problem solving, creativity focus, ideation, all the good things we want in ourselves and in the people who work with us versus unhealthy overthinking.<\/p>\n So the first thing you want to ask yourself is: is this something I\u2019m choosing to think about? Because rumination is like a runaway car, right? We can\u2019t put on the brakes or we try, but we\u2019re sucked back in over and over again. And another question we can ask ourselves is this the first time I\u2019ve thought about this? Usually the answer is no. I was thinking about it in the shower. I was thinking about it when I was walking the dog. I was thinking about it when I was making dinner. Am I losing whole swaths of time?<\/p>\n You can also ask yourself, is this going to matter a year from now? Is this going to matter five years from now? And that usually is a good indicator that we\u2019re caught up in something that really isn\u2019t going to matter in the long term, but it\u2019s mattering to our immediate sense of belonging. And of course the big question is this getting me anywhere? Am I coming any closer to a solution? I can promise you that rumination is extremely seductive, that it will give you an answer, but it\u2019s a false promise. In the end, you\u2019re not getting closer to a solution.<\/p>\n ALISON BEARD: Okay. So if those questions don\u2019t stop you from overthinking, you do have recommendations to break out of the negative thought patterns.<\/p>\n DONNA JACKSON NAKAZAWA: Yes.<\/p>\n ALISON BEARD: Why don\u2019t you walk me through and our listeners through your MIST technique and explain why it works.<\/p>\n DONNA JACKSON NAKAZAWA: So I went around to a lot of the top neuroscientists in the country and worked to come up with a framework based on what we can see on FMRI scans that will actually unlock this part of the brain that locks us down into rumination and came up with the MIST Framework.<\/p>\n MIST, it\u2019s an acronym, of course, because what writer doesn\u2019t love an acronym. M is for mental imagery. So when we\u2019re ruminating, we see a lot of movie-like reels that we load up time and time again, right? Usually these reels are creating a story that we\u2019ve been telling ourselves for a long time about us, about ourselves. So can you think of something that you\u2019ve been ruminating about lately that\u2019s just coming back up in the same reel over and over again and kind of identify it?<\/p>\n ALISON BEARD: So my producer asked me to think of something that I\u2019ve been ruminating about related to my professional life, and so I actually went back to an old story. So it\u2019s not something I\u2019m currently ruminating about, but it clearly still sticks with me. When I was working in London at the Financial Times, I was the editor of the House and Home section and it became a standalone section apart from the Weekend FT, and as a result of that, I on Fridays would need to go to the morning meeting. Now, the morning meeting was led by the editor-in-chief. It had all the most senior accomplished editors in the paper and they would explain what stories that they were running that day and this was interest rate hikes, corporate mergers, military conflicts. And then I, a young woman at the time would go in and talk about my feature on the Milan Furniture Fair or properties in Spain.<\/p>\n And so it was a nerve-wracking experience to begin with. And then one day, I was talking about an interview about a garden or a home with the former UK First Lady, Cherie Blair, and I mispronounced her name Cherry and I wanted to drop into the ground and I just thought to myself, oh my gosh, I have confirmed their opinion that I am this silly little girl in their room of big important men and I thought about it for a really long time afterwards. So walk me through how if you had known me then, you would\u2019ve made me stop thinking about it.<\/p>\n DONNA JACKSON NAKAZAWA: So I would start with the MIST Framework and I would say, \u201cOkay, here is my old story from you in your words. Alison, tell me, what\u2019s your old story?\u201d It might be something like, \u201cHere\u2019s my old story of how as a woman I\u2019m dismissed or here\u2019s my old story of how I can\u2019t find the right words. So here\u2019s my old story of how\u2026\u201d Go ahead.<\/p>\n ALISON BEARD: Yeah. I would say here\u2019s my old story of how when I joined the Financial Times almost directly out of college, I felt a little bit out of my depth and I did have to work alongside extremely accomplished reporters and editors and I needed to learn how to hang with them.<\/p>\n DONNA JACKSON NAKAZAWA: Good. Excellent. That\u2019s it. Here\u2019s my old story of how I\u2019m out of my depth in comparison to the people around me. And then we\u2019re going to bring an I, which is for interior emotion, intense emotion. So every time we load these same reels, it gives rise to a lot of emotions. So we\u2019re going to go from M, we\u2019re going to add that on to your sentence. Here\u2019s my old story about how I\u2019m out of my depth around accomplished people, which makes me feel\u2026<\/p>\n ALISON BEARD: Okay. Here\u2019s my old story of how I feel out of depth around accomplished colleagues and it makes me feel anxious.<\/p>\n DONNA JACKSON NAKAZAWA: Great. And so as we\u2019re doing that, we\u2019re going to go into S for somatic sensations. Those are just physical bodily sensations that as I said, across evolutionary time we evolve so that whenever we detect social threat, we develop these big chemical responses and they show up in our body. So where is it showing up in your body?<\/p>\n ALISON BEARD: I have a distinct memory of just feeling my cheeks flushed and also butterflies, like sick to my stomach.<\/p>\n DONNA JACKSON NAKAZAWA: So here\u2019s my old story of how I feel out of my depth with accomplished colleagues, which makes me feel anxious and my stomach churn or whatever. Let\u2019s do the whole thing, and that\u2019s T for tie it together.<\/p>\n ALISON BEARD: Here\u2019s my old story of how I feel out of my depth around accomplished colleagues, which makes me feel anxious and makes the blood rise to my cheeks and gives me butterflies in my stomach.<\/p>\n DONNA JACKSON NAKAZAWA: Exactly. Okay. So that is MIST. We did mental imagery, intense interior emotion, and we did somatic sensations and we tied it all together. That is your personal rumination code.<\/p>\n ALISON BEARD: How does that help?<\/p>\n DONNA JACKSON NAKAZAWA: Because often the kind of things that we\u2019re caught in that are sticking with us, the conversation we\u2019re replaying from the lunch meeting yesterday or the email that we\u2019ve read to our spouse three times like, \u201cWhat do you think he meant by this?\u201d Often the story that gets going in our head, which is, \u201cHey, I\u2019m out of my depth,\u201d for you, I\u2019m telling you yours. It\u2019s often a story that\u2019s run for very long time throughout our lives. Our personal codes of rumination, they\u2019re signal fires from the past and we had very good research on this that often our early experiences, they don\u2019t stay in the past, they become templates.<\/p>\n And that means that later at work an email in which your idea is critiqued in a very professional way, it might not feel neutral. It might feel like a threat to your sense of mattering and belonging. And the number one thing we ruminate about is our sense of whether we matter to the people and places that matter to us.<\/p>\n ALISON BEARD: So we\u2019ve asked ourselves the questions, like is this helpful thinking or not helpful thinking? We\u2019ve done the MIST Framework to figure out why the pattern might be repeating for us, but then you also have some suggestions for just actually disrupting the thought in the moment. Even if we know it\u2019s unhelpful, when we know where it\u2019s coming from, we still can\u2019t help ourselves. There\u2019s some advice that you have.<\/p>\n DONNA JACKSON NAKAZAWA: Yes. And that advice is also based on neuroscience and the idea that the longer we ruminate or the longer we get caught in a specific rumination pattern, which we all have, the more we\u2019re throwing down that neural circuitry that makes it easier and easier for us to get sucked back into those thought patterns. And what we want to do is interrupt those neural tracks. And so we want to do what I call ballistic interruptions by, again, using language as our portal to escape. These can be really, really simple. You have to come up with your own, whatever really resonates and lands with you with emotional grit. It can be as simple as something like cancel, or not today, you don\u2019t.<\/p>\n Now here\u2019s another trick for your brain. When you use your name in the third person or you refer to yourself as you, your brain is more likely to pay attention, and the more that we\u2019re able to do this in a way that has landing power for us, the better it is. I was working with an artist and she was really caught up in her colleague\u2019s ideas of her work and she\u2019s quite talented, well-known artist. She could not get the things that other people were saying. So she actually came up with something where she painted the word rumination and then she crossed out the M and it said ruination and she keeps it up in her studio.<\/p>\n ALISON BEARD: That\u2019s a good thing for all of us to remember.<\/p>\n DONNA JACKSON NAKAZAWA: So that she can get to the creativity that fuels her work versus caught in the thoughts of what other people think about her work.<\/p>\n ALISON BEARD: Yeah. That reminds me that journaling is another thing you recommend. Why does that help?<\/p>\n DONNA JACKSON NAKAZAWA: It helps to get the experience out of our body and onto the page so that our brain feels a sense of release. And we have absolutely fantastic evidence from James Pennebaker that when we journal about things that are very difficult for us, it has a measurable effect on our bodies.<\/p>\n ALISON BEARD: It\u2019s interesting. I don\u2019t journal, but I do when I\u2019m stewing over something tend to call one of my friends and go for a walk with them and then I just sort of get it all out. I\u2019ve always thought of it as sort of like confessional. It\u2019s something I\u2019m feeling really bad about and so it\u2019s really important for me to talk about it and get it out. Is that the same thing?<\/p>\n DONNA JACKSON NAKAZAWA: I think it is the same thing that I want to pick up on that for a second because it\u2019s interesting that when we share something that\u2019s happening with a friend, usually that\u2019s a good thing. It\u2019s a good coping mechanism for rumination and women tend to do that more than men statistically and it\u2019s called tend and befriend. It\u2019s like, okay, you\u2019re walking together, she\u2019s listening to you, she\u2019s helping you put it in perspective. You feel like I got that off my chest and I\u2019m still loved and accepted by this person.<\/p>\n ALISON BEARD: And I should note that I do this at work too. I call my two best work friends and I vent to them and ask them what they think about how the situation played out and what I could have done differently and all of that.<\/p>\n DONNA JACKSON NAKAZAWA: And you still matter to them. You still belong, you\u2019re still accepted. But there is good research on what we call co-rumination and that\u2019s a problem. That\u2019s when you go to someone and you unload about the thing that your boss did and they\u2019re like, \u201cYeah, I know. Here\u2019s what he did to me last week.\u201d And it goes on and on and then suddenly you might even get other people on it. Co-rumination can be really dangerous because people lose perspective. They\u2019re not doing the MIST Framework. They\u2019re not seeing, \u201cOkay, what is my old story that\u2019s showing up here?\u201d They\u2019re believing everything and they\u2019re reinforcing others\u2019 negative beliefs about a third-party or situation or person.<\/p>\n ALISON BEARD: A group negative vicious cycle.<\/p>\n DONNA JACKSON NAKAZAWA: Exactly.<\/p>\n ALISON BEARD: Can any new technologies, and I\u2019m particularly thinking about gen AI chatbots help in all of this?<\/p>\n DONNA JACKSON NAKAZAWA: It\u2019s so funny because people do turn to AI chatbots for answers to problems, but I would go back to what we started with, which is that it\u2019s so much better to get this face-to-face with someone you trust and care about. We have very good research from Ted Kaptchuk that heard that when we\u2019re in the room with another human, neurobiologically relaxing about difficult situations, it gives us the same good feelings as the placebo effect, which are measurable. I don\u2019t think we\u2019re ever going to get that from chatbots.<\/p>\n ALISON BEARD: You also talk about the importance of rest, and I would say that when I\u2019m ruminating, it\u2019s most often at 3:00 AM in the morning when I\u2019m woken up and can\u2019t get back to sleep. So how do you solve the rumination problem when rumination is causing lack of sleep?<\/p>\n DONNA JACKSON NAKAZAWA: Well, so when I talk about rest, I\u2019m not necessarily talking about sleep, I\u2019m talking about deep rest, mental rest for the brain. And just to step back, yes, you are ruminating not only about the number one thing that we all ruminate about, whether we matter to other people who matter to us, but also at the most common time, 3:00 AM, that is it. Most of us ruminate in the middle of the night.<\/p>\n So if you want to get deep rest, which will actually help you to sleep better at night, the best way for the brain is not just sleep, it\u2019s through doing techniques that allow the brain to turn down while you are still in a waking state. What does that look like? So deep breaths can look like doing body scans. My favorite is by Jon Kabat-Zinn. I\u2019ve been doing it for 30 years. I can do it in my head now where we allow the brain to rest while we kind of turn on the body.<\/p>\n Yoga Nidra is another wonderful technique. If you can\u2019t do Yoga Nidra, you can\u2019t do body scans, go in a flotation tank. Flotation tanks are terrific for turning off the brain and allowing the whole brain to sync up. So what we\u2019re trying to do is reduce the stimuli that we\u2019re constantly sending our brains that make us overthink and thought spiral, and up the sensations and awarenesses that make the whole brain productive.<\/p>\n So a body scan is pretty simple. It\u2019s kind of like a meditation where you go through various parts of your body. Even the army uses these, by the way, the army uses these to help soldiers go to sleep very quickly after a day on a battlefield. It\u2019s very effective for taking a brain offline and bringing your whole physical emotional system into homeostasis. Yoga Nidra is really great. You just spend a lot of time concentrating on fine points in the body like the inside of your cheek or the tip of your toenail until all your left and right hemisphere light up together. That\u2019s really the goal here. And the Default Mode Network transforms from sort of our enemy to our friend because it\u2019s the same area of the brain that gives rise to that kind of flow state that we\u2019re all looking for.<\/p>\n ALISON BEARD: Well, that brings me to my next question because you do say in the book that it\u2019s positive to flip negative thinking to positive thinking, which sounds related to that switch you just talked about with the Default Mode Network. So talk to me about how exactly that works because I am a little skeptical.<\/p>\n DONNA JACKSON NAKAZAWA: Yeah, no, I was too. I\u2019m like, \u201cOkay, this is getting too sort of motivational fluff for me versus neuroscience,\u201d which I am a science reporter, but I take heart in the fact that I have used this with now a lot of people to good effect. So for instance, if you can allow the fear that is in your rumination to work for you and become your friend, it can be very, very helpful. So I\u2019m going to use a non-workplace example here just because we all have lives, right?<\/p>\n ALISON BEARD: And rumination in our personal lives bleeds into our professional lives because we\u2019re distracted and we can\u2019t perform at our best.<\/p>\n DONNA JACKSON NAKAZAWA: 100%. It might not be your colleague. It could be the snarky thing your husband said to you in the kitchen that morning is still with you in your 10:00 meeting. That is part of being human. So one person I worked with had that kind of a situation, kind of a perpetually cranky teenager-like husband who would say things that would stick with her for a very long time. So she started to beat up on herself a lot about why she couldn\u2019t speak up for herself. She couldn\u2019t come up with a good way to respond to him. And as she started to figure out what her rumination code was, the effect for her was she began to find her voice again.<\/p>\n And so one day we were sort of unpacking all that she had learned by using the MIST Framework and ballistic interruption and other techniques and she was able to take that situation of beating up on herself or having stayed silent for so long and turn it around and say to herself, \u201cOkay, but actually being in this marriage allowed me to develop this voice.\u201d And so that helped her find some peace with the situation that she\u2019d been in. And I would say the same could apply if someone had a really difficult boss. Finding that ability to voice oneself, that is the thing that comes out of working with and recognizing our ruminative thought spiraling patterns. And when we find our voice we lose the fear.<\/p>\n ALISON BEARD: Do you know or have you worked with any business leaders who have been able to become more successful in their careers because they\u2019ve tackled a really bad rumination habit?<\/p>\n DONNA JACKSON NAKAZAWA: Well, a lot of the people I\u2019ve spoken with are at fairly high levels of what they do, and what I found is that when people are able to work through their ruminative patterns, they don\u2019t react so much to the small things that are going on around them. They lose the reactivity that takes them out of the productivity and that is a really big deal. They\u2019re also better able to reduce psychological threat for the people around them. So yes, I have seen people go from a state of more head spinning to an ability to bring people together that creates a synergy that\u2019s better for the entire company.<\/p>\n ALISON BEARD: So it sounds like your view is that part of a manager\u2019s job is to make sure that their team members aren\u2019t given a lot of things to ruminate about, whether that\u2019s because their psychological safety or great communication or sort of other leadership skills we count as important.<\/p>\n DONNA JACKSON NAKAZAWA: Right. And they\u2019ve trained themselves to recognize when they\u2019re being activated and they\u2019ve trained their managers to recognize when they\u2019re being activated. And on the other end, from the bottom up, they\u2019re offering the ability to allow people to ask for more clarity so that when things are really ambiguous, if you leave things in a really ambiguous way for your staff, they\u2019re going to ruminate more. We cannot read into five words in an email all the things that we need to read into, and to allow people to ask the next person up, their manager or their boss, for more clarity, that is a two-way street to offer clarity and allow people to ask for more clarity. When we remove the ambiguity and we offer psychological clarity and support and safety, people perform better.<\/p>\n ALISON BEARD: Because you\u2019ve been studying this for so long, are there any tips that you would give leaders for learning to recognize when other people are ruminating and could be helped with some of the techniques that you\u2019re talking about?<\/p>\n DONNA JACKSON NAKAZAWA: I think the first thing is that when you notice that someone is being quiet or their responses seem overly charged to the situation at hand, or most commonly for managers, what I hear is that this team doesn\u2019t want to play well with that team or this manager doesn\u2019t want to play well with that manager. Those people are coding what\u2019s happening through their thought patterns that have often been around for a really long time. But when managers are trained in a way to recognize their own ruminative patterns and to allow people to ask for clarity, a lot of that goes away.<\/p>\n I want to remind people here that a third of us don\u2019t even understand the concept of rumination and yet we spend a good amount of at least four hours a day caught in a negative ruminative state. That\u2019s a lot of time. That\u2019s a lot of productivity. And sometimes just having this conversation around the fact that we\u2019re doing it and it\u2019s okay to talk about it and it\u2019s okay to ask questions and it\u2019s okay to make this part of the conversation can go a long way.<\/p>\n ALISON BEARD: Well, Donna, thank you so much for being with me. I really appreciate it.<\/p>\n DONNA JACKSON NAKAZAWA: It\u2019s great to be with you, Alison. Thanks for having me.<\/p>\n ALISON BEARD: That\u2019s Donna Jackson Nakazawa, author of the book, Mind Drama: The Science of Rumination and How to Outwit Your Inner Defeatist.<\/p>\n Next week, Adi speaks with Eric Ries, creator of the Lean Startup Methodology about how organizations can avoid becoming corrupt.<\/p>\n If you found this episode helpful, please share it with a colleague and be sure to subscribe and rate \uc544\uc774\ub514\uc5b4 \uce90\uc2a4\ud2b8<\/em> Apple Podcasts, Spotify \ub610\ub294 \ub4e3\ub294 \uacf3 \uc5b4\ub514\uc5d0\uc11c\ub098.<\/p>\n Thanks to our team, senior producer, Mary Dooe, audio product manager, Ian Fox, and senior production specialist, Rob Eckhardt. And thanks to you for listening to the HBR \uc544\uc774\ub514\uc5b4\uce90\uc2a4\ud2b8.<\/em> \ud654\uc694\uc77c\uc5d0 \uc0c8\ub85c\uc6b4 \uc5d0\ud53c\uc18c\ub4dc\ub85c \ub3cc\uc544\uc624\uaca0\uc2b5\ub2c8\ub2e4.<\/p>\n<\/p><\/div>\n #Break #Free #Negative #Thought #Spirals<\/p>","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":" ALISON BEARD: I\u2019m Alison Beard. ADI IGNATIUS: And I\u2019m Adi Ignatius, and this is the HBR IdeaCast. ALISON BEARD: Adi, do you know the origin of the word ruminate? ADI IGNATIUS: I actually do. It comes from ruminants, those animals we love who chew their cud all day. ALISON BEARD: Yes, exactly. Giraffes, cows, camels. 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